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Thread: Steven Anderson on Mount Athos

  1. #21
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Prayer to the saints is emphatically NOT necromantic. The charge is akin to saying the practice is demonic, a highly serious charge (to say the least). Do you really want to go there?

    Also, argument from silence duly noted. Does Justin Martyr say anything about asking others to pray for him?
    Nothing wrong with asking others, but I have no reason to believe dead saints can hear. Nothing in Scripture indicates that they can and prayer is always done to some deity in there.

    The problem with saying it's an argument from silence is the assumption that the practice was going on back then and since Justin said nothing against it, it must be okay. If it wasn't going on, why would we expect Justin to say anything about it? I might as well say the pre-trib rapture is supported by the Fathers because they say nothing against it.

  2. #22
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    Nothing wrong with asking others, but I have no reason to believe dead saints can hear. Nothing in Scripture indicates that they can and prayer is always done to some deity in there.
    Are you paying attention, Nick? Prayer to "dead" saints has produced results recorded about as far back as the practice is attested. Someone is honoring the prayers, yes? I disagree that prayer is always done to some deity in the OT. Prayers (requests) are not infrequently made to other people - who happen to still be alive, but this idea that prayer is only towards heaven is AFAICT a peculiarity of modern Protestant English (even then, the word is still used in legal contexts).
    The problem with saying it's an argument from silence is the assumption that the practice was going on back then and since Justin said nothing against it, it must be okay. If it wasn't going on, why would we expect Justin to say anything about it? I might as well say the pre-trib rapture is supported by the Fathers because they say nothing against it.
    Again, you appear to be lacking attention to the argument I'm making. I never said it was definitely going on back then, because that would be an argument from silence. I'm calling YOU out for making an argument from silence - and your response is to burn a pile of straw. C'mon, Nick, you're smarter than that.

    What I know is that prayer to the saints is attested by the third century (see the link RJ posted), and it appears as an established practice; no argument needed to be made that it was okay to do. That tells me it had been going on long enough to become normative. I don't know when the practice started; all I know is that it was early, noncontroversial, and it works. When is the practice first condemned?
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  3. #23
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Are you paying attention, Nick? Prayer to "dead" saints has produced results recorded about as far back as the practice is attested. Someone is honoring the prayers, yes? I disagree that prayer is always done to some deity in the OT. Prayers (requests) are not infrequently made to other people - who happen to still be alive, but this idea that prayer is only towards heaven is AFAICT a peculiarity of modern Protestant English (even then, the word is still used in legal contexts).
    I heard it, but I am not convinced because nothing in Scripture indicates this to me and I am sure there are many other practices that "work" that I would disagree with.

    Again, you appear to be lacking attention to the argument I'm making. I never said it was definitely going on back then, because that would be an argument from silence. I'm calling YOU out for making an argument from silence - and your response is to burn a pile of straw. C'mon, Nick, you're smarter than that.
    If I am told a practice is apostolic yet I see no mention of it very early on from the apostles, then I question if it is apostolic.

    What I know is that prayer to the saints is attested by the third century (see the link RJ posted), and it appears as an established practice; no argument needed to be made that it was okay to do. That tells me it had been going on long enough to become normative. I don't know when the practice started; all I know is that it was early, noncontroversial, and it works. When is the practice first condemned?
    I see the link, but I also know the dating is not an open and shut case. Some date it to the fifth century. We also don't know who wrote it. Was it a Christian sect? Was it a non-Christian sect? Who knows? Hard to say this is normative Christian practice if we have one instance that we have disputes on date and we don't know who said it.

    As for when it's first condemned, I would want to look into that a bit more. My main question is with the idea that it's apostolic.

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