Steven Anderson on Mount Athos

[Apologiaphoenix]

Does Anderson's criticism ring true?

Linkvideohis own church video

[KingsGambit]

Anderson is a false teacher. He denies the gospel to sinners by claiming that homosexuals cannot repent. I don't expect him to get less basic concepts either.

[One Bad Pig]

A prayer to Mary is one of the earliest prayers we have outside of the NT (3rd century). There are a handful of early instances of writings rejecting icons, but I recall no writings rejecting intercession of the saints from the first millennium or so - Nick, do you know of any?

There's even a story in the OT showing the efficacy of relics (a dead man who touched Elisha's relics came back to life).

[Apologiaphoenix]

OBP. Knowing of it being rejected doesn't mean it's in practice. James Endell Tyler wrote an interesting book on that. It's an old book, but I know Tim McGrew encourages the reading of old books.

[One Bad Pig]

OBP. Knowing of it being rejected doesn't mean it's in practice. James Endell Tyler wrote an interesting book on that. It's an old book, but I know Tim McGrew encourages the reading of old books.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Maybe slow down, proofread, and take the time to link me to the book you want me to read? This is uncharacteristically sloppy of you. Old books can be good or bad. Interesting books can be good or bad.

[KingsGambit]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Maybe slow down, proofread, and take the time to link me to the book you want me to read? This is uncharacteristically sloppy of you. Old books can be good or bad. Interesting books can be good or bad.

I was going to say, I think you read more patristic literature than anybody here. I wouldn't think you would have an objection to reading something old.

[Apologiaphoenix]

https://www.amazon.com/Primitive-Chr...gateway&sr=8-1

[One Bad Pig]

https://www.amazon.com/Primitive-Chr...gateway&sr=8-1

Having perused this work a bit, Nick, I am faintly astonished that you would proffer it. The section on the Apostolic Fathers is entirely an argument from silence. The section on Justin Martyr requires some tendentious reading on the part of the author, reading his views into the text. I don't know that his foil, Bellarmin, is making good arguments either, but Mr. Tyler is impressing me about as much as one of Bart Ehrman's popular works.

I suppose I'll take a look at later sections as I have time, but all the argument in the world isn't likely to budge me, because invocation of the saints works. Countless miracles have been worked via invocation of the saints - to the glory of God. If God honors it, why reject it? Think about that.

[Teallaura]

I was going to say, I think you read more patristic literature than anybody here. I wouldn't think you would have an objection to reading something old.

That wasn't it - AN went off the 12 ft board without checking the 3 ft. It took me a second to figure out what AN was talking about - AN jumped from the request for information diretly to refuting the concept. That was what threw OBP (and me).

[Teallaura]

And... I think I'll just let myself out... Before the fireworks all go off...

[NorrinRadd]

My Lutheran relatives are always praying to one dead saint or another -- usually whichever one is supposedly in charge of finding lost things. It does seem to work for them, but I can't get past the necromancy aspect.

[Apologiaphoenix]

I'm with Norrin on this one and yes, if the practice wasn't going on in the time of say, Justin Martyr, why should we find him saying something against it? If we find him making several statements on prayer and none of them talk about saints, then we have reason to be suspicious.

[KingsGambit]

I am unconvinced that there is a conscious intermediate state to begin with. As Glenn Peoples points out, there are only a few passages that cause the view difficulty, and they all seem to appear in contexts where the idea of a literal teaching is questionable (i.e. souls at the altar in Revelation, parable of rich man and Lazarus). Meanwhile, the image of death as sleep is prevalent through Scripture, and Daniel 12:2 and 12:13 seems to me to be a straightforward teaching that Daniel and others would sleep until the final judgment. I don't dogmatically hold the view as I don't think Scripture is entirely clear one way or the other, but this does present an extra hurdle.

[Rushing Jaws]

Does Anderson's criticism ring true?

Linkvideohis own church video

expect

[Rushing Jaws]

A prayer to Mary is one of the earliest prayers we have outside of the NT (3rd century). There are a handful of early instances of writings rejecting icons, but I recall no writings rejecting intercession of the saints from the first millennium or so - Nick, do you know of any?

There's even a story in the OT showing the efficacy of relics (a dead man who touched Elisha's relics came back to life).

A prayer to the Theotokos from about 250: https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/ortho...rayer-to-mary/