I've always wondered, wouldn't the saints need to be granted a level of omniscience in order to hear the prayers offered to them? How does that work?
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That seems to render prayer to the saints as, at best, superfluous. But I do know Origen was a bit of a speculative thinker so there's a good chance he wasn't dogmatic about this anyway."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThat seems to render prayer to the saints as, at best, superfluous. But I do know Origen was a bit of a speculative thinker so there's a good chance he wasn't dogmatic about this anyway.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostI'm with Norrin on this one and yes, if the practice wasn't going on in the time of say, Justin Martyr, why should we find him saying something against it? If we find him making several statements on prayer and none of them talk about saints, then we have reason to be suspicious.
Also, argument from silence duly noted. Does Justin Martyr say anything about asking others to pray for him?Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostPrayer to the saints is emphatically NOT necromantic. The charge is akin to saying the practice is demonic, a highly serious charge (to say the least). Do you really want to go there?
Also, argument from silence duly noted. Does Justin Martyr say anything about asking others to pray for him?
The problem with saying it's an argument from silence is the assumption that the practice was going on back then and since Justin said nothing against it, it must be okay. If it wasn't going on, why would we expect Justin to say anything about it? I might as well say the pre-trib rapture is supported by the Fathers because they say nothing against it.
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostNothing wrong with asking others, but I have no reason to believe dead saints can hear. Nothing in Scripture indicates that they can and prayer is always done to some deity in there.
The problem with saying it's an argument from silence is the assumption that the practice was going on back then and since Justin said nothing against it, it must be okay. If it wasn't going on, why would we expect Justin to say anything about it? I might as well say the pre-trib rapture is supported by the Fathers because they say nothing against it.
What I know is that prayer to the saints is attested by the third century (see the link RJ posted), and it appears as an established practice; no argument needed to be made that it was okay to do. That tells me it had been going on long enough to become normative. I don't know when the practice started; all I know is that it was early, noncontroversial, and it works. When is the practice first condemned?Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostAre you paying attention, Nick? Prayer to "dead" saints has produced results recorded about as far back as the practice is attested. Someone is honoring the prayers, yes? I disagree that prayer is always done to some deity in the OT. Prayers (requests) are not infrequently made to other people - who happen to still be alive, but this idea that prayer is only towards heaven is AFAICT a peculiarity of modern Protestant English (even then, the word is still used in legal contexts).
Again, you appear to be lacking attention to the argument I'm making. I never said it was definitely going on back then, because that would be an argument from silence. I'm calling YOU out for making an argument from silence - and your response is to burn a pile of straw. C'mon, Nick, you're smarter than that.
What I know is that prayer to the saints is attested by the third century (see the link RJ posted), and it appears as an established practice; no argument needed to be made that it was okay to do. That tells me it had been going on long enough to become normative. I don't know when the practice started; all I know is that it was early, noncontroversial, and it works. When is the practice first condemned?
As for when it's first condemned, I would want to look into that a bit more. My main question is with the idea that it's apostolic.
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