Announcement

Collapse

Archeology 201 Guidelines

If Indiana Jones happened to be a member of Tweb, this is where he'd hang out.

Welcome to the Archeology forum. Were you out doing some gardening and dug up a relic from the distant past? would you like to know more about Ancient Egypt? Did you think Memphis was actually a city in Tennessee?

Well, for the answers to those and other burning questions you've found the right digs.

Our forum rules apply here too, if you haven't read them now is the time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Confirmations of the New Testament

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    Not so. I am quoting from the 1995 edition of Aland & Aland, The Text of The New Testament, pp. 69.
    Do you have the 1995 edition at hand or something, or are you simply uncritically taking the cite somewhere from the internet? Because if what you say is true then it seems like Aland & Aland contradict themselves a mere 24 pages afterwards when they say that the picture has changed completely when it comes to the view that the early text was "free".

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
      Do you have the 1995 edition at hand or something...
      I have the book, and both quotes are in there, as well as what I quoted saying the editions of the NT are substantially in agreement. Continuing on p. 95, we read:

      Source: Aland and Aland, The Text of the New Testament

      Although many details are obviously still debatable, there can be no doubt that the earlier view of the textual situation before the rise of the major text types is now due for a radical and thorough review... All the papyri before the third/fourth century are placed in the highest category because of their age, even when their "free" text sets them at a distance from the original text.

      © Copyright Original Source


      So they can speak of a distance from the original text here, showing that we have a good idea what the original text would be.

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        Within a hundred years meets YOUR EXPRESS CRITERIA. Further, YOUR CRITERIA throws out almost all ancient documentation. No cherry picking allowed.
        The historians nor I are not biased on any one ancient historical document. All ancient documents are open to skepticism as I referenced when rogue brought up Julius Caesar's commentaries, which are NOT considered authoritative in any way, and contain conflicts with archaeological evidence. There is no standard of selectivity. Can you name one ancient document that historians selectively endorse over another? Within a hundred years even whether it is so or not does not make the documentation solid in anyway, as referenced by Tassman and I referenced by academic historians.

        STILL WAITING . . .
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-06-2019, 08:42 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          The historians nor I are not biased on any one ancient historical document.
          Historians, maybe.

          You? Not so sure about that one...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            The historians nor I are not biased on any one ancient historical document. All ancient documents are open to skepticism as I referenced when rogue brought up Julius Caesar's commentaries, which are NOT considered authoritative in any way, and contain conflicts with archaeological evidence. There is no standard of selectivity. Can you name one ancient document that historians selectively endorse over another? Within a hundred years even whether it is so or not does not make the documentation solid in anyway, as referenced by Tassman and I referenced by academic historians.

            STILL WAITING . . .
            Too bad - point stands since there is no rebuttal.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              Too bad - point stands since there is no rebuttal.
              Point not made, only a baseless assertion.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Point not made, only a baseless assertion.
                Point made - no refutation attempted.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  I have the book, and both quotes are in there, as well as what I quoted saying the editions of the NT are substantially in agreement. Continuing on p. 95, we read:

                  Source: Aland and Aland, The Text of the New Testament

                  Although many details are obviously still debatable, there can be no doubt that the earlier view of the textual situation before the rise of the major text types is now due for a radical and thorough review... All the papyri before the third/fourth century are placed in the highest category because of their age, even when their "free" text sets them at a distance from the original text.

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  So they can speak of a distance from the original text here, showing that we have a good idea what the original text would be.
                  The best reading as agreed by scholarly committee refers to the earliest available texts and of course they are similar because, as the Aland’s say from the same source, pp.69:

                  “Even for later scribes, for example, the parallel passages of the Gospels were so familiar that they would adapt the text of one Gospel to that of another. They also felt themselves free to make corrections in the text, improving it by their own standard of correctness, whether grammatically, stylistically, or more substantively. This was all the more true of the early period, when the text had not been attained canonical status…”

                  The textual similarity does not refer to the closeness to an 'original' text because that is unknown. No such letter-perfect manuscript is known to have ever existed or what books comprised it if it did, especially given that some texts moved between canonical and non-canonical status. Books such as Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    The textual similarity does not refer to the closeness to an 'original' text because that is unknown. No such letter-perfect manuscript is known to have ever existed or what books comprised it if it did, especially given that some texts moved between canonical and non-canonical status. Books such as Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas.
                    You'll have to reword this a bit, because as it's written it's like you're claiming that it's not even certain if the original autographs of the writings making up the NT ever existed, which is a thesis I find hard to believe many scholars would be willing to defend.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                      You'll have to reword this a bit, because as it's written it's like you're claiming that it's not even certain if the original autographs of the writings making up the NT ever existed, which is a thesis I find hard to believe many scholars would be willing to defend.
                      Obviously, there would have been first renderings of all of the early Christian writings. What I’m saying is that, according to the likes of the Aland’s, there was no letter-perfect original canonical manuscript that had the authority equivalent to that of the Hebrew scriptures. Not until around the fourth century C.E.

                      Prior to this many Christian documents were being written and circulated, but Christians didn’t yet have a sense of which writings were canonical and which were non-canonical, because there was, as yet, no universal New Testament canon.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        Point made - no refutation attempted.
                        Without references and explanation no points made for unsupported assertions.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          Obviously, there would have been first renderings of all of the early Christian writings. What I’m saying is that, according to the likes of the Aland’s, there was no letter-perfect original canonical manuscript that had the authority equivalent to that of the Hebrew scriptures. Not until around the fourth century C.E.

                          Prior to this many Christian documents were being written and circulated, but Christians didn’t yet have a sense of which writings were canonical and which were non-canonical, because there was, as yet, no universal New Testament canon.
                          Letter perfect?!?! I do not believe this is a realistic standard in the history of Hebrew nor Christian scriptures. They both show the distinct characteristics of evolved, edited and redacted scriptures. It is true that Hebrew scriptures became relatively evolved at some time between ~1100 and 500 BCE, but these scriptures are the result of a process of evolution up until the Dead Sea scrolls. The oldest known Torah as we know it today is from the 11-12th century.

                          Source: http://www.oldest.org/religion/torah/


                          The word Torah can mean many different things, but in general it refers to the first five books of the Jewish Bible, which is known as the Pentateuch. However, “torah” is also used to refer to the entire Jewish Bible as well as the whole body of Jewish laws and teaching. According to Jewish tradition, the oral Torah was given to Moses on Mount Sinai by God, who then passed on what he learned to the Jewish people.

                          No one knows for sure when the Torah was first written down, but scholars believe that the final version of the Torah we have today was recorded during the Babylonian exile (c.539 BCE). A few fragments of texts from around this time period have survived, but the oldest complete Torah only dates to the 11th or 12th century.

                          © Copyright Original Source

                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            The textual similarity does not refer to the closeness to an 'original' text because that is unknown.
                            It does refer to closeness to an original text, even though we don't have the originals.

                            Source: Aland and Aland, The Text of the New Testament

                            All the papyri before the third/fourth century are placed in the highest category because of their age, even when their "free" text sets them at a distance from the original text.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              Obviously, there would have been first renderings of all of the early Christian writings. What I’m saying is that, according to the likes of the Aland’s, there was no letter-perfect original canonical manuscript that had the authority equivalent to that of the Hebrew scriptures. Not until around the fourth century C.E.

                              Prior to this many Christian documents were being written and circulated, but Christians didn’t yet have a sense of which writings were canonical and which were non-canonical, because there was, as yet, no universal New Testament canon.
                              And yet in II Peter 3:15-18 we have Peter describing Paul's letters as Scripture and in I Timothy 5:18 Paul quotes Scripture citing Deuteronomy 25:4 and Luke 10:7.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                Letter perfect?!?! I do not believe this is a realistic standard in the history of Hebrew nor Christian scriptures. They both show the distinct characteristics of evolved, edited and redacted scriptures. It is true that Hebrew scriptures became relatively evolved at some time between ~1100 and 500 BCE, but these scriptures are the result of a process of evolution up until the Dead Sea scrolls. The oldest known Torah as we know it today is from the 11-12th century.

                                Source: http://www.oldest.org/religion/torah/


                                The word Torah can mean many different things, but in general it refers to the first five books of the Jewish Bible, which is known as the Pentateuch. However, “torah” is also used to refer to the entire Jewish Bible as well as the whole body of Jewish laws and teaching. According to Jewish tradition, the oral Torah was given to Moses on Mount Sinai by God, who then passed on what he learned to the Jewish people.

                                No one knows for sure when the Torah was first written down, but scholars believe that the final version of the Torah we have today was recorded during the Babylonian exile (c.539 BCE). A few fragments of texts from around this time period have survived, but the oldest complete Torah only dates to the 11th or 12th century.

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                I was borrowing the Aland’s phrase, whereby they compare and contrast the Old Testament “where an almost letter-perfect transcription was the rule” to the New Testament, whereby it continued to be a “living text" as long as it remained a manuscript tradition before it had attained canonical status.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 05:38 AM
                                0 responses
                                9 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by tabibito, 09-07-2023, 02:41 PM
                                30 responses
                                132 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X