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Thread: Confirmations of the New Testament

  1. #161
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Point made - no refutation attempted.
    Without references and explanation no points made for unsupported assertions.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

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  2. #162
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Obviously, there would have been first renderings of all of the early Christian writings. What I’m saying is that, according to the likes of the Aland’s, there was no letter-perfect original canonical manuscript that had the authority equivalent to that of the Hebrew scriptures. Not until around the fourth century C.E.

    Prior to this many Christian documents were being written and circulated, but Christians didn’t yet have a sense of which writings were canonical and which were non-canonical, because there was, as yet, no universal New Testament canon.
    Letter perfect?!?! I do not believe this is a realistic standard in the history of Hebrew nor Christian scriptures. They both show the distinct characteristics of evolved, edited and redacted scriptures. It is true that Hebrew scriptures became relatively evolved at some time between ~1100 and 500 BCE, but these scriptures are the result of a process of evolution up until the Dead Sea scrolls. The oldest known Torah as we know it today is from the 11-12th century.

    Source: http://www.oldest.org/religion/torah/


    The word Torah can mean many different things, but in general it refers to the first five books of the Jewish Bible, which is known as the Pentateuch. However, “torah” is also used to refer to the entire Jewish Bible as well as the whole body of Jewish laws and teaching. According to Jewish tradition, the oral Torah was given to Moses on Mount Sinai by God, who then passed on what he learned to the Jewish people.

    No one knows for sure when the Torah was first written down, but scholars believe that the final version of the Torah we have today was recorded during the Babylonian exile (c.539 BCE). A few fragments of texts from around this time period have survived, but the oldest complete Torah only dates to the 11th or 12th century.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. #163
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    The textual similarity does not refer to the closeness to an 'original' text because that is unknown.
    It does refer to closeness to an original text, even though we don't have the originals.

    Source: Aland and Aland, The Text of the New Testament

    All the papyri before the third/fourth century are placed in the highest category because of their age, even when their "free" text sets them at a distance from the original text.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
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    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  4. #164
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Obviously, there would have been first renderings of all of the early Christian writings. What I’m saying is that, according to the likes of the Aland’s, there was no letter-perfect original canonical manuscript that had the authority equivalent to that of the Hebrew scriptures. Not until around the fourth century C.E.

    Prior to this many Christian documents were being written and circulated, but Christians didn’t yet have a sense of which writings were canonical and which were non-canonical, because there was, as yet, no universal New Testament canon.
    And yet in II Peter 3:15-18 we have Peter describing Paul's letters as Scripture and in I Timothy 5:18 Paul quotes Scripture citing Deuteronomy 25:4 and Luke 10:7.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  5. Amen lee_merrill amen'd this post.
  6. #165
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Letter perfect?!?! I do not believe this is a realistic standard in the history of Hebrew nor Christian scriptures. They both show the distinct characteristics of evolved, edited and redacted scriptures. It is true that Hebrew scriptures became relatively evolved at some time between ~1100 and 500 BCE, but these scriptures are the result of a process of evolution up until the Dead Sea scrolls. The oldest known Torah as we know it today is from the 11-12th century.

    Source: http://www.oldest.org/religion/torah/


    The word Torah can mean many different things, but in general it refers to the first five books of the Jewish Bible, which is known as the Pentateuch. However, “torah” is also used to refer to the entire Jewish Bible as well as the whole body of Jewish laws and teaching. According to Jewish tradition, the oral Torah was given to Moses on Mount Sinai by God, who then passed on what he learned to the Jewish people.

    No one knows for sure when the Torah was first written down, but scholars believe that the final version of the Torah we have today was recorded during the Babylonian exile (c.539 BCE). A few fragments of texts from around this time period have survived, but the oldest complete Torah only dates to the 11th or 12th century.

    © Copyright Original Source

    I was borrowing the Aland’s phrase, whereby they compare and contrast the Old Testament “where an almost letter-perfect transcription was the rule” to the New Testament, whereby it continued to be a “living text" as long as it remained a manuscript tradition before it had attained canonical status.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  7. #166
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    OK from the perspective of the believer, but not the subject of the thread.
    Relevant nonetheless. Plenty of people confuse the truth of claims about history, with the truth of theological claims. So pointing this out is not off-topic, but is very relevant to it. Distinctions of that kind need making, for the sake of clarity, to avoid confusion of thought.
    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 11-30-2019 at 05:14 PM.

  8. #167
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Precisely. I could now write a book about WWII over 70 years later that relies on eyewitness testimony like from my father and a couples of uncles as well as neighbors I knew growing up.
    Excellent analogy 😀

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