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My brief (and polemical) thought about Christianity...

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  • #91
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    All I see in the OP is an assertion which is on the face of it absurd.
    It does no good just to assert that my assertion is absurd without justification. That makes your assertion just as ''absurd'' as mine.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Seeker View Post
      It does no good just to assert that my assertion is absurd without justification. That makes your assertion just as ''absurd'' as mine.
      Perhaps you missed it, but I provided an examble of why your assertion was absurd. I have no idea why you're revisiting this. You may also want to brush up on the meaning of "absurd"; in fairness, you're not a native English speaker.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Perhaps you missed it, but I provided an examble of why your assertion was absurd. I have no idea why you're revisiting this. You may also want to brush up on the meaning of "absurd"; in fairness, you're not a native English speaker.
        Not an error on my end this time. Aren't absurd and nonsensical the same thing? Thanks for trying to be kind, at least.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Seeker View Post
          Dear Twebbers,

          Christian doctrine cannot be true. First off, there are dozens, hundreds of Christian doctrines which are mutually exclusive. Two, they are full of contradictions. And third, because truth is the relation between description and that which is described. Well, a large chunk of Christian doctrine is about Christian doctrine. Thus, it is self-referential and leads nowhere.

          Comments?
          Yes, this a problem, but nonetheless There is a consistency if the traditional churches of Christianity, which make up by far the majority of Christians in the world. The problem is the dominant doctrines and dogma such as the Virgin Birth, sacrifice for forgiveness of sins, and Original Sin, are based, are grounded in versions of ancient tribal beliefs and culture of the Middle East.
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-24-2020, 09:40 AM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            The problem is the dominant doctrines and dogma such as the Virgin Birth, sacrifice for forgiveness of sins, and Original Sin, are based, are grounded in versions of ancient tribal beliefs and culture of the Middle East.

            Old does not equal wrong, or bad.

            New does not equal correct, or good.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
              Old does not equal wrong, or bad.

              New does not equal correct, or good.

              You mean we can't just dismiss everything Shunya says up front, because he's old?
              ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                Old does not equal wrong, or bad.

                New does not equal correct, or good.
                Yeah, the same way popular does not equal correct, or good. I actually agree with your post there. :)

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  JP Holding's short e-book on the Trinity explains it in a way that even I can understand. (Though the obvious question is that if his interpretation is correct, why did the early church fathers have so much trouble understanding it?)
                  You need to read up on the first 250 years of your religion and the numerous different beliefs/ideas about the nature of the Christ and his relationship with the Father. Christianity was entirely fluid in those first two and a half centuries and different Christian communities had their own scriptures and their own beliefs on those issues. The proto-orthodox group was among the main groups by the early fourth century but it was not the dominant group. At the time of the First Council of Nicaea there was no “correct” Christianity. That is why Constantine called the council to bring about some conformity into the new religion and thus uphold political stability.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Yes, this a problem, but nonetheless There is a consistency if the traditional churches of Christianity, which make up by far the majority of Christians in the world.
                    Do you mean ''of'' instead of ''if'' in the sentence above?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Seeker View Post
                      Dear Twebbers,

                      Christian doctrine cannot be true. First off, there are dozens, hundreds of Christian doctrines which are mutually exclusive. Two, they are full of contradictions. And third, because truth is the relation between description and that which is described. Well, a large chunk of Christian doctrine is about Christian doctrine. Thus, it is self-referential and leads nowhere.

                      Comments?
                      There is a lot of truth in that. Although, what exactly have you mind in statement 2 ?

                      And, is truth what your post says it is ?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                        There is a lot of truth in that. Although, what exactly have you mind in statement 2 ?
                        There are many contradictions between different sects of Christianity.

                        You have many examples here:

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_in_Christianity

                        And here more:

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Church

                        Many Christians have ideas about god and religion that are incompatible with those of other Christians. This is not simply an 'open question' issue, as in science, where there is disagreement on aspects that have not yet been resolved. This is about the very fundamental dogmas that each group considers to be revealed and unchanging truth.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Seeker View Post
                          Dear Twebbers,

                          Christian doctrine cannot be true. First off, there are dozens, hundreds of Christian doctrines which are mutually exclusive. Two, they are full of contradictions. And third, because truth is the relation between description and that which is described. Well, a large chunk of Christian doctrine is about Christian doctrine. Thus, it is self-referential and leads nowhere.

                          Comments?
                          I have often thought all that. And more like that.

                          My guess: God is not hindered by our divisions, which are often far from trivial, and must be honestly faced as what they are. Instead (I think) God judges that there is unity, not where there is unity of external organisation. but where there is unity of shared allegiance to Christ. So it doesn’t matter too much that (say) Baptists and Catholics differ about Baptism, or the Papacy - they have genuine unity, the one that Christ prayed for, if, and to the extent that, they are in union with Christ. Union between Christians and Churches is first, foremost, in all things, and always, union in Christ & in the Holy Spirit of Christ. Unity in doctrine is, at most, a manifestation of it - but not the basic cause of it.

                          Unity in doctrine is like the cement that keeps a house together - the true source and cause of the unity of the house is not the cement or the bricks, or even the plan, but the creative vision and intention of the architect. God is the Architect of the Church, and as God sees the Church, it is “without blemish or spot”, because He sees it “in Christ”, as it is intended to be - and in the end, genuinely will be. This is not God refusing to “face reality” - this is God, Who loves His Church, seeing past the countless deformities and ills that plague her, to who the Church herself is. So He can say, of the Church as she genuinely is in Christ, “Thou art all fair, my love; and there is no blemish in thee”. We see our friends’ deformities and sicknesses - but because our friends are dear to us, we see past the uglinesses in them (which on Earth are often real), to them as the people they are meant by God to be. Our friends are not their diseases or faults - and they cannot be reduced to their diseases or faults. Neither is the Church reduced, or reducible, to the uglinesses in her. She cannot be un-created or un-called. because God has called and created her, in Christ.

                          As to the other objections: IMHO, the Church and her life can be seen correctly, only if she is loved. I think love is absolutely vital for sound theology; otherwise, what we mean to be theology, can all too easily become a useless shuffling of ideas, a barren intellectualism. Criticisms of the Church’s life and conduct can become unhelpful, not because they are unwarranted - they often are - but because denouncing evils and corruptions that need to be denounced. and corrected, can easily taint or smother ability to love the Church. The Church is to be loved not because she is loveable in her behaviour - she often isn’t - but because God loves her. Any fancied prosperity or praiseworthiness of the Church, or any other good in her, of any kind, is a manifestation of God’s favour to her.

                          Hope that helps.
                          Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 03-08-2021, 07:34 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                            You need to read up on the first 250 years of your religion and the numerous different beliefs/ideas about the nature of the Christ and his relationship with the Father. Christianity was entirely fluid in those first two and a half centuries and different Christian communities had their own scriptures and their own beliefs on those issues. The proto-orthodox group was among the main groups by the early fourth century but it was not the dominant group. At the time of the First Council of Nicaea there was no correct Christianity. That is why Constantine called the council to bring about some conformity into the new religion and thus uphold political stability.
                            How do you manage to fit so much wrong in so few words? I'm impressed!
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post

                              How do you manage to fit so much wrong in so few words? I'm impressed!
                              Perhaps you would like to indicate, point by point, where you consider those facts to be in error.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • I would like to "Amen" Rushing Jaws' comment #102 above. Beautifully stated explanation for the various divisions among believers of like precious faith. Can someone please give a quick tutorial to an absolute newbie as to how "Amens" can be given? This fellow cat-lover would be grateful.

                                Comment

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