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Thread: My brief (and polemical) thought about Christianity...

  1. #81
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Non sequitur.
    It's not a non sequitur. The doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church is different from the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, and those are different from the Protestant branch of Christianity, and the Protestants have different doctrines, etc.

    Being Christianity composed of doctrines different and inconsistent between themselves, Christianity cannot be a true doctrine (except in the trivial sense that FROM A inconsistent set of propositions everything can be deducted).

    All the best,

    Seeker
    Last edited by Seeker; 09-18-2019 at 04:17 AM.

  2. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  3. #82
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
    It's not a non sequitur. The doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church is different from the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, and those are different from the Protestant branch of Christianity, and the Protestants have different doctrines, etc.

    Being Christianity composed of doctrines different and inconsistent between themselves, Christianity cannot be a true doctrine (except in the trivial sense that FROM A inconsistent set of propositions everything can be deducted).

    All the best,

    Seeker
    I've made this point before, but many many years ago I was part of a cult, and one of the cult's main talking points for proving that IT was the truth and that Christianity was a lie was that there were so many Christian denominations with numerous mutually exclusive doctrines. And I believed this. Until I left the cult, and did some seeking myself. And after checking out a few other religions and non-religions I found myself coming back to Christianity and seeing how screwed up all of these multiple denominations with all of their mutually exclusive doctrines were. And to my shock I found that...they all had far more in common than not! That they all shared common roots, and they all shared common doctrinal views at their cores. There is a core to Christianity that all orthodox (little "o") denominations share that makes it possible for someone from one denomination to pray, and fellowship and share insights with other denominations.

    The Christian philosopher William Lane Craig explains Christian beliefs like a spider web. At the core of the spider web you'll find those beliefs that are central to holding the whole thing together. God exists. Jesus was an historical person. Then a bit further out perhaps, Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus died and was raised from the dead. A little further from that the divinity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity, and forgiveness of sin. And then perhaps a little further out, views on atonement, and views on baptism. And a little further from that, views on eschatology. Until you come to the edges of the spider web and get to things like "Do we need to tithe 10%?," "Can we play instruments in the church?," "Is it okay for pastors/priests to wear jeans and sneakers?"

    You're going to find consensus agreement on the core beliefs among orthodox Christians. There's a popular maxim in Latin when this subject comes up: In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas which variously translates to "in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity," or more loosely translated: "unity in necessary things; freedom in doubtful things; love in all things." As a Protestant who has strong disagreements about all manner of things with Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and even other Protestants I've learned so much and have grown so much stronger in my faith interacting with people in those other denominations. Some of my favorite Bible scholars and teachers belong to Christian traditions that appear from the outside to be vastly different from my own, but we all share those common core beliefs that make learning from them possible and fruitful.
    Last edited by Adrift; 09-18-2019 at 06:58 AM.

  4. #83
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    I've made this point before, but many many years ago I was part of a cult, and one of the cult's main talking points for proving that IT was the truth and that Christianity was a lie was that there were so many Christian denominations with numerous mutually exclusive doctrines. And I believed this. Until I left the cult, and did some seeking myself. And after checking out a few other religions and non-religions I found myself coming back to Christianity and seeing how screwed up all of these multiple denominations with all of their mutually exclusive doctrines were. And to my shock I found that...they all had far more in common than not! That they all shared common roots, and they all shared common doctrinal views at their cores. There is a core to Christianity that all orthodox (little "o") denominations share that makes it possible for someone from one denomination to pray, and fellowship and share insights with other denominations.

    The Christian philosopher William Lane Craig explains Christian beliefs like a spider web. At the core of the spider web you'll find those beliefs that are central to holding the whole thing together. God exists. Jesus was an historical person. Then a bit further out perhaps, Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus died and was raised from the dead. A little further from that the divinity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity, and forgiveness of sin. And then perhaps a little further out, views on atonement, and views on baptism. And a little further from that, views on eschatology. Until you come to the edges of the spider web and get to things like "Do we need to tithe 10%?," "Can we play instruments in the church?," "Is it okay for pastors/priests to wear jeans and sneakers?"

    You're going to find consensus agreement on the core beliefs among orthodox Christians. There's a popular maxim in Latin when this subject comes up: In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas which variously translates to "in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity," or more loosely translated: "unity in necessary things; freedom in doubtful things; love in all things." As a Protestant who has strong disagreements about all manner of things with Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and even other Protestants I've learned so much and have grown so much stronger in my faith interacting with people in those other denominations. Some of my favorite Bible scholars and teachers belong to Christian traditions that appear from the outside to be vastly different from my own, but we all share those common core beliefs that make learning from them possible and fruitful.
    Couldn't agree with you more here Adrift! Since I began serving in Kairos Prison Ministry, which allows members from any denomination that holds to the Trinity, the deity of, and the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Bible is the authoritative and inspired Word of God...pretty much anyone...to serve. And, like you, I have found my faith has grown and matured as I see "The Church" doing what it's supposed to do, love people into the Kingdom of God. I've found we have MUCH more in common than we do differences.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

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  5. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
  6. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    I've made this point before, but many many years ago I was part of a cult, and one of the cult's main talking points for proving that IT was the truth and that Christianity was a lie was that there were so many Christian denominations with numerous mutually exclusive doctrines. And I believed this. Until I left the cult, and did some seeking myself. And after checking out a few other religions and non-religions I found myself coming back to Christianity and seeing how screwed up all of these multiple denominations with all of their mutually exclusive doctrines were. And to my shock I found that...they all had far more in common than not! That they all shared common roots, and they all shared common doctrinal views at their cores. There is a core to Christianity that all orthodox (little "o") denominations share that makes it possible for someone from one denomination to pray, and fellowship and share insights with other denominations.

    The Christian philosopher William Lane Craig explains Christian beliefs like a spider web. At the core of the spider web you'll find those beliefs that are central to holding the whole thing together. God exists. Jesus was an historical person. Then a bit further out perhaps, Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus died and was raised from the dead. A little further from that the divinity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity, and forgiveness of sin. And then perhaps a little further out, views on atonement, and views on baptism. And a little further from that, views on eschatology. Until you come to the edges of the spider web and get to things like "Do we need to tithe 10%?," "Can we play instruments in the church?," "Is it okay for pastors/priests to wear jeans and sneakers?"

    You're going to find consensus agreement on the core beliefs among orthodox Christians. There's a popular maxim in Latin when this subject comes up: In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas which variously translates to "in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity," or more loosely translated: "unity in necessary things; freedom in doubtful things; love in all things." As a Protestant who has strong disagreements about all manner of things with Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and even other Protestants I've learned so much and have grown so much stronger in my faith interacting with people in those other denominations. Some of my favorite Bible scholars and teachers belong to Christian traditions that appear from the outside to be vastly different from my own, but we all share those common core beliefs that make learning from them possible and fruitful.
    Against this post, disagreements I cannot find.
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  7. Amen Adrift, Littlejoe amen'd this post.
  8. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    To be fair, it really should be in Apologetics; General Theistics is meant to be for irenic, not polemical discussion.
    But it's not completely off the mark, since it still says "Apologetics Lite" though, isn't it? I really don't know what is meant by the rest of the description, though.

  9. #86
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
    But it's not completely off the mark, since it still says "Apologetics Lite" though, isn't it? I really don't know what is meant by the rest of the description, though.
    The emphasis in this forum is on friendly discussion of diverse faiths; polemical thought is sort of not friendly, yes?
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  10. Amen KingsGambit, Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  11. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    The emphasis in this forum is on friendly discussion of diverse faiths; polemical thought is sort of not friendly, yes?
    Ok, fair point. I should have paid more attention.

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    tWebber MaxVel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    I've made this point before, but many many years ago I was part of a cult, and one of the cult's main talking points for proving that IT was the truth and that Christianity was a lie was that there were so many Christian denominations with numerous mutually exclusive doctrines. And I believed this. Until I left the cult, and did some seeking myself. And after checking out a few other religions and non-religions I found myself coming back to Christianity and seeing how screwed up all of these multiple denominations with all of their mutually exclusive doctrines were. And to my shock I found that...they all had far more in common than not! That they all shared common roots, and they all shared common doctrinal views at their cores. There is a core to Christianity that all orthodox (little "o") denominations share that makes it possible for someone from one denomination to pray, and fellowship and share insights with other denominations.

    The Christian philosopher William Lane Craig explains Christian beliefs like a spider web. At the core of the spider web you'll find those beliefs that are central to holding the whole thing together. God exists. Jesus was an historical person. Then a bit further out perhaps, Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus died and was raised from the dead. A little further from that the divinity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity, and forgiveness of sin. And then perhaps a little further out, views on atonement, and views on baptism. And a little further from that, views on eschatology. Until you come to the edges of the spider web and get to things like "Do we need to tithe 10%?," "Can we play instruments in the church?," "Is it okay for pastors/priests to wear jeans and sneakers?"

    You're going to find consensus agreement on the core beliefs among orthodox Christians. There's a popular maxim in Latin when this subject comes up: In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas which variously translates to "in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity," or more loosely translated: "unity in necessary things; freedom in doubtful things; love in all things." As a Protestant who has strong disagreements about all manner of things with Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and even other Protestants I've learned so much and have grown so much stronger in my faith interacting with people in those other denominations. Some of my favorite Bible scholars and teachers belong to Christian traditions that appear from the outside to be vastly different from my own, but we all share those common core beliefs that make learning from them possible and fruitful.
    If I've understood you correctly, you're saying that Spiderman is really Jesus?
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  13. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Don't bother taking anything demi-conservative says seriously. He's only here to troll.
    You mean he is only HERE (my thread) to troll, or he's a troll in the forum in general?

  15. #90
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    JP Holding's short e-book on the Trinity explains it in a way that even I can understand. (Though the obvious question is that if his interpretation is correct, why did the early church fathers have so much trouble understanding it?)
    1. Because they lacked the advantage of hindsight that succeeding generations possess; and because they had to do the spade-work of deciding what assertions about God were orthodox, & which were not.
    2. Errors are very often not at all easy to identify - especially when, in a given context, they are parts of a truth. Christ is less than the Father - according to His Humanity. It is not obvious that He is co-equal and consubstantial with the Father - in His Divinity.
    3. Further difficulties arise from the unsystematic character of the Biblical texts; and from uncertainties as how they should be interpreted.
    4. Knowledge and understanding of the ideas - and mistakes - of the past, is a valuable help to discerning better answers in the present.
    5. They did not originally have a sufficient and adequate vocabulary to express what they meant: which is why a word such as *homoousios*, “consubstantial”, was borrowed from usage outside Scripture, to express a truth implicit in Scripture.
    6. The loss of contact with the Church’s roots in Jewish culture presumably played a part.
    7. One could also ask why the Apostles did not at once see all the implications of Christ. Much that Christians hold as doctrine is not explicit in the Bible.

    This is partly why certain Churches place a very high value on Tradition.
    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 11-24-2019 at 06:37 PM.

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