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Thread: What is the Preterist take on Ezekiel 36-39? If fulfilled in the past, when?

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    tWebber
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    What is the Preterist take on Ezekiel 36-39? If fulfilled in the past, when?

    Ezekiel 36 to 39 describe a series of events to take place in "the Last Days," (Ezek. 38:8. 16) beginning with the restoration of Israel as a nation (which took place in 1948) after a worldwide dispersion.

    Futurists believe this was to take place after Israel became a nation again, and that the invasion described is yet to take place (perhaps in our day, perhaps even in the near future). As Preterists do not appear to believe Israel today has anything to do with this prophecy or future events, then I assume they must picture a past fulfillment. I would be interested in when this allegedly took place, and how the details of these chapters were verified (ie. the burial site of Hammon-Gog and the town of Hamonah of Ezek. 39:11 and 16).

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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcav8tor View Post
    Ezekiel 36 to 39 describe a series of events to take place in "the Last Days," (Ezek. 38:8. 16) beginning with the restoration of Israel as a nation (which took place in 1948) after a worldwide dispersion.

    Futurists believe this was to take place after Israel became a nation again, and that the invasion described is yet to take place (perhaps in our day, perhaps even in the near future). As Preterists do not appear to believe Israel today has anything to do with this prophecy or future events, then I assume they must picture a past fulfillment. I would be interested in when this allegedly took place, and how the details of these chapters were verified (ie. the burial site of Hammon-Gog and the town of Hamonah of Ezek. 39:11 and 16).
    I don't believe I've considered the passage before. Given Ez. 39:17-20, it is certainly not meant to be taken strictly literally (as that would violate Mosaic law). What I do know is that the modern secular nation of Israel can in no way have anything to do with fulfillment of this prophecy (Ez. 36:26-27, which is a requisite condition for the promises that follow).

    I can't speak for the "preterist take" but I see no tension between a general preterist interpretation and assigning a future fulfillment to this particular prophecy. Given the language of Ez. 36:26-7 (which generally in Christian interpretation of the same idea elsewhere has been applied to the New Covenant), it's possible it's being fulfilled over time with the advent of the Church.
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  3. Amen KingsGambit amen'd this post.
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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    I'm looking at 36:26-28:

    I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

    Verse 28 seems to point toward a literal land interpretation of some sort (as opposed to a vague replacement theology interpretation of it referring to the worldwide church), but it should be noted that the borders of the modern day state of Israel do not match the boundaries of what God originally gave under the Old Covenant. Verse 27 is also difficult to match with the current state of Israel, where secular Jews outnumber the number of observant Jews.
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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    ...What I do know is that the modern secular nation of Israel can in no way have anything to do with fulfillment of this prophecy....
    Yet so many Christian churches hang their eschatology on this.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  6. Amen KingsGambit, Christianbookworm amen'd this post.
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    tWebber
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    The prophecies usually involve metaphors and mysteries which probably don't resolve to the physical realities that we may expect from the text.

    A good example of this is in Isaiah 3-4. Within Isaiah 3, we see Jerusalem judged and destroyed. In Isaiah 4, Jerusalem appears intact with blessings. I suspect that the Jerusalem of Isaiah 4 represents the new Jerusalem which descends from heaven in the last chapters of Revelation. My take on Isaiah (without having yet study the overall structure with great detail) is that the problems and fixes within Isaiah correspond to the problems and changes that would occur in the era of the Messiah (i.e., the first century events ... and the gospel).

    We likely find the 'land of the fathers' in Ezek 36:28 to be this glorified destination. The verses about abundant grain and fruit (verses 29-30) then become metaphors for blessings of God upon the people (in Christ).

    Note hat the interpretation of verses 29-30 has three predominant options: 1) Ezekiel was written only to appeal to people who live on farms, 2) people in this prophetic future will depend on their own farms to grow grain and fruit trees, or 3) the language is a metaphor for abundance in people's circumstances (or for getting past the calamities of that era).

    In verses 26-27, the work of Christ is seen. Such changes through Christ have happened through the gospel in the first century. This fulfillment tends to place the previous verses within the same changes as the Christian's receipt of the Holy Spirit.

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    Well, if Peter in Acts 2 was correct when he quoted the Prophet Joel, then the last days were beginning with the receipt of the Holy Spirit that Ezek. also spoke of in ch 36.

    14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

    17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
    that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
    and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    and your young men shall see visions,
    and your old men shall dream dreams;
    18 even on my male servants and female servants
    in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
    19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
    and signs on the earth below,
    blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
    20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood,
    before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
    21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Yet so many Christian churches hang their eschatology on this.
    Probably because of the improbable historical circumstances surrounding that event (6 day war, etc.). What's stranger to me is that, while a lot of Christians denounce that particular event involving Israel as having any spiritual or historical significance, they seem to contradict that in their undying support for Israel from a political point of view. That's what I don't get.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    Probably because of the improbable historical circumstances surrounding that event (6 day war, etc.). What's stranger to me is that, while a lot of Christians denounce that particular event involving Israel as having any spiritual or historical significance, they seem to contradict that in their undying support for Israel from a political point of view. That's what I don't get.
    Where do you get that idea? As far as I can tell, the two groups are largely synonymous.

    I generally (but not uncritically) support Israel politically because they're better than most countries in the area politically. That has nothing to do with my religious beliefs, however.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    Probably because of the improbable historical circumstances surrounding that event (6 day war, etc.).
    I have heard that a bunch, to be sure. But I also read a book about the amazing preparations the Israelis had made in advance, as well as some unpublished assistance from US sources.

    I'd say it was a classic example of "work like it all depends on you, pray like it all depends on God".

    What's stranger to me is that, while a lot of Christians denounce that particular event involving Israel as having any spiritual or historical significance, they seem to contradict that in their undying support for Israel from a political point of view. That's what I don't get.
    Wait, what? Not getting what you're saying here. How can it not have any historical significance to the secular State of Israel?
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I have heard that a bunch, to be sure. But I also read a book about the amazing preparations the Israelis had made in advance, as well as some unpublished assistance from US sources.

    I'd say it was a classic example of "work like it all depends on you, pray like it all depends on God".



    Wait, what? Not getting what you're saying here. How can it not have any historical significance to the secular State of Israel?
    I should have clarified that I meant prophetic history. I believe that prophecies can just be a sign of God's omnipotence and control over history and have no real spiritual significance further than that. But you guys don't even accept that in relation to Israel, do you?
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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