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Thread: The irony of the New York Timesí 1619 Project...

  1. #581
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Thank you for asking and talking - that gives me hope. There are, in fact, many issues like that. And they are hard to talk about, because it is very hard to address them without it raising the specter of the past use of elements like that to justify overt racism.

    To your first question, tt had very dark racist implications in the context of that specific conversation because most people here are trying to diminish or eliminate any recognition of the reality of present day racism, or any acknowledgement that the long term consequences of Slavery and Racism are seen in the lingering disparities we see between the Black and the White populations. That question - in that context - has deep racist roots - that Black people are inferior to White people - in this case morally inferior. I can only imagine how deep a hole you'd have to dig out of if you had asked that in the context of this thread before an average inner city African American audience where the wounds of those sorts of statements are still raw.

    In the end, I believe that it is a consequence of the poverty and crime and broken families that are a legacy of racism and slavery, perhaps compounded by changing social morays that more negatively affect the poor. But to change it, we have to change how the children affected by it are raised, the culture they grow up in, the environment they grow up in, their access to education, nutrition and a host of other factors. But to change THAT you have to change the skillsets, attitudes and other fundamental elements of who the parents are from the previous generation, and the damage caused by their own environments and their own broken families. There is no easy fix. But my point is to do anything at all, we have to first recognize that there are real historical factors coupled with present day factors that are feeding this cycle, and they stem from the Slavery and racism that laid their foundation. And most importantly, it is not really reasonable or right to look the other way and expect that cycle to fix itself.


    Jim
    And that is why, to me, we start with school choice. Something like 70% of these families want choice. There is no evidence that these inner city schools will get better, no matter how much money you pour in. My second proposition is 40 acres and a mule (which we should have done after the Civil war). We bull doze all the plighted neighbors (where no one lives) in these cities and deed the cleaned up land (which is mostly city owned) to African Americans. They could just sit on the property, get a building loan using the property as collateral for a small house, or sell it to investors.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  2. #582
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Thank you for asking and talking - that gives me hope. There are, in fact, many issues like that. And they are hard to talk about, because it is very hard to address them without it raising the specter of the past use of elements like that to justify overt racism.

    To your first question, tt had very dark racist implications in the context of that specific conversation because most people here are trying to diminish or eliminate any recognition of the reality of present day racism, or any acknowledgement that the long term consequences of Slavery and Racism are seen in the lingering disparities we see between the Black and the White populations. That question - in that context - has deep racist roots - that Black people are inferior to White people - in this case morally inferior. I can only imagine how deep a hole you'd have to dig out of if you had asked that in the context of this thread before an average inner city African American audience where the wounds of those sorts of statements are still raw.

    In the end, I believe that it is a consequence of the poverty and crime and broken families that are a legacy of racism and slavery, perhaps compounded by changing social morays that more negatively affect the poor. But to change it, we have to change how the children affected by it are raised, the culture they grow up in, the environment they grow up in, their access to education, nutrition and a host of other factors. But to change THAT you have to change the skillsets, attitudes and other fundamental elements of who the parents are from the previous generation, and the damage caused by their own environments and their own broken families. There is no easy fix. But my point is to do anything at all, we have to first recognize that there are real historical factors coupled with present day factors that are feeding this cycle, and they stem from the Slavery and racism that laid their foundation. And most importantly, it is not really reasonable or right to look the other way and expect that cycle to fix itself.


    Jim
    Weíve been doing this stuff since before I was born, to the tune of around 1 trillion dollars in the past 50 years. How well has it worked out?
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  3. #583
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And that is why, to me, we start with school choice. Something like 70% of these families want choice. There is no evidence that these inner city schools will get better, no matter how much money you pour in. My second proposition is 40 acres and a mule (which we should have done after the Civil war). We bull doze all the plighted neighbors (where no one lives) in these cities and deed the cleaned up land (which is mostly city owned) to African Americans. They could just sit on the property, get a building loan using the property as collateral for a small house, or sell it to investors.
    Teacher unions fight tooth and nail against school choice.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  4. #584
    tWebber
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    Closing out my interest in this thread, I would be totally in favor of substantial, directed public investment in historically minority-segregated neighborhoods, with strict regulations in place to ensure that the added value goes to the minority homeowners. Or some form of mass reparations so that most, if not all, historically discriminated-against families and communities can increase the quality and worth of their neighborhoods or relocate.

    But the people who just want to ignore generations of discrimination and illicit theft of property and wealth, under the guise that everything today is "fixed", are perpetuating a deeply immoral and, indeed, unsustainable system.

    --Sam


    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    And of course, liberals that think blacks are not smart enough to make it without whitey helping them has nothing to do with any of it.

    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" ó Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"


  5. #585
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    The city that that township was associated with certainly had a racist past, as it was a stronghold of a one of the more violent branches of the KKK, so there's no denying that there was segregation. One of the famous eating establishments in that city actually had a separate restroom for blacks back in the 50s on the outside of the building (the door is still there, but of course, most people today don't know its history) and there was a "no coloreds" rule for the local swimming hole/and bubblers in the same decade (again, something that the last few generations have no knowledge of, certainly not within the white community).

    While I believe some of the segregation was planned, some of it seemed to simply happen naturally. A number of Housing and Urban Development Acts were intended to be a positive help to the poor and underprivileged, and it mostly backfired as it resulted in segregated slums and towers-in-the-park type neighborhoods. And it does appear to be the case that, while some neighborhoods can be blissfully integrated (like the neighborhoods I grew up in), some people truly do desire self-segregation. It's always been that way. Polish tend to live near other Poles, Germans near other Germans, Irish next to Irish, Italians next to Italians, Jews next to Jews, and Blacks next to Blacks. Dearborn likely has the largest Arab population outside of the Middle East, and Minneapolis and St. Paul have extremely large Somali populations. I'm not saying these are wrong or right. I'm saying they just are. And sometimes they're not planned, or if they are planned, they're not always planned with malice.
    Even today, if you go to most universities you'll see many various ethnic groups willingly segregating themselves

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  6. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  7. #586
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Even today, if you go to most universities you'll see many various ethnic groups willingly segregating themselves
    You'll even find student run organizations within schools that cater exclusively to a particular demographic (so long as they're not white, because that'd be racist).
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  8. #587
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Now you're playing the twisting game on me. I never said nor have I assumed that the real estate sites are racist. I've only said that it is possible for bias to exist in the search algorithms, both explicit and implicit.

    Do you understand the difference between

    1) Real estate searches are biased demographically

    and

    2) It is possible for Real estate searches to contain biases both explicit and implicit.

    They are not even remotely the same thing Sparko. But 2) does serve as a sufficient rebuttal for the claim that "internet searches eliminate the possibility of racial bias".


    The only claim I ever responded to was the claim that the use of web searches eliminated the possibility of racial bias. And yet, here you are, waltzing off implying I'm assuming they are biased. Imagine that, not only is my observation that you twisted Sam's point correct, here you are in the span of just a few posts twisting my statements in the very same way.




    Jim
    If it is just a mental exercise in what is possible, then why spend 20 pages arguing with us saying it is not happening?

    I will take this as an admission that neither you nor Sam believe that there is any racial bias in Real Estate search engines, and no actual indications that there even might be any. Thank you.

  9. #588
    God, family, chicken! Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Closing out my interest in this thread, I would be totally in favor of substantial, directed public investment in historically minority-segregated neighborhoods, with strict regulations in place to ensure that the added value goes to the minority homeowners. Or some form of mass reparations so that most, if not all, historically discriminated-against families and communities can increase the quality and worth of their neighborhoods or relocate.

    But the people who just want to ignore generations of discrimination and illicit theft of property and wealth, under the guise that everything today is "fixed", are perpetuating a deeply immoral and, indeed, unsustainable system.

    --Sam
    My God, you are ignorant...


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  10. #589
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Closing out my interest in this thread, I would be totally in favor of substantial, directed public investment in historically minority-segregated neighborhoods, with strict regulations in place to ensure that the added value goes to the minority homeowners. Or some form of mass reparations so that most, if not all, historically discriminated-against families and communities can increase the quality and worth of their neighborhoods or relocate.

    But the people who just want to ignore generations of discrimination and illicit theft of property and wealth, under the guise that everything today is "fixed", are perpetuating a deeply immoral and, indeed, unsustainable system.

    --Sam
    Itís not Ďignoring ití as weíve spent money like itís water and it doesnít seem to work, so the solution is do the same thing again and hope for different results. How well is that plan working? Handing out billions of dollars isnít going to fix a thing.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  11. #590
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    My God, you are ignorant...
    1 trillion dollars spent, in 50 years, and little has changed. Obviously, we need to spend more until the problem is solved.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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