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Thread: The irony of the New York Timesí 1619 Project...

  1. #31
    tWebber
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    I would encourage a slow and deliberate reading, one that assimilates the facts and claims made before jumping to criticize. Hannah-Jones nowhere claims that her father saw lynchings; she claims that Mississippi lynched more black people than anywhere in the nation and that her fathers home county lynched more than anywhere else in Mississippi.

    --Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Uh, how exactly, is her Dad in the 30's-40's seeing numerous lynchings? Most lynching had ended in the 1920's and while there were isolated incidents, they were not the rule. Even more impressive since she states her father was 17 in 1962 - giving him a probable birth year of 1945.
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" ó Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"


  2. #32
    tWebber
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    The implication being, I guess, that America is painted in very negative lighting by stating facts that aren't even in dispute but are common knowledge?

    Interesting.

    --Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I read the article, it recounts our sins, and it paints our country in a very negative light. And except for the personal stories like that of her father, there wasn't much that wasn't common knowledge. So what is the end game here? The New York times has a goal here, fits right in with this:

    New York Times chief outlines coverage shift: From Trump-Russia to Trump racism

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...o-trump-racism
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" ó Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"


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  4. #33
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    I would encourage a slow and deliberate reading, one that assimilates the facts and claims made before jumping to criticize. Hannah-Jones nowhere claims that her father saw lynchings; she claims that Mississippi lynched more black people than anywhere in the nation and that her fathers home county lynched more than anywhere else in Mississippi.

    --Sam
    Let's be charitable and assume I did misunderstand - one part. I didn't misunderstand the whole thing - or you'd be busily showing me every uncrossed T.

    I think it simply boils down to she's saying what you want to hear - and I'm far more prickly about those little fact things. Happens when you spend your life listening to people who don't know you or your friends - or even the folks they think they are defending - condemn everyone with the broadest of brushes and the fewest of facts.

  5. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
  6. #34
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    The implication being, I guess, that America is painted in very negative lighting by stating facts that aren't even in dispute but are common knowledge?

    Interesting.

    --Sam
    Excepting the 'facts' part where she gets so many of them either misconstrued or flat out wrong.

  7. Amen Adrift, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  8. #35
    tWebber
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    You called Samuel Johnson, a famed British abolitionist, "selective" in criticizing American slavers.

    --Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Excepting the 'facts' part where she gets so many of them either misconstrued or flat out wrong.
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" ó Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"


  9. #36
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    You called Samuel Johnson, a famed British abolitionist, "selective" in criticizing American slavers.

    --Sam
    British - seems his comment wasn't directed at his own house - which didn't get put in order until 1833. Yeah, it's a fair assessment of the comment.

    Which wasn't one of the facts in dispute, I remind you. Also, you're misusing 'slavers' here.



    Now, the more pertinent question - why the heck are either of us still up arguing this?!?!?!

  10. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
  11. #37
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    The implication being, I guess, that America is painted in very negative lighting by stating facts that aren't even in dispute but are common knowledge?

    Interesting.

    --Sam
    Exactly, the left keeps rubbing our face in it, opening old wounds. And the fact it lines up with their push to paint Trump as a racist, and by extension his supporters.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  12. #38
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    I'm skeptical that a person can discern the sole purpose of a project by skimming a few of its essays, myself.

    What, exactly, is anachronistic?

    -Sam
    If you've read the essays then the anachronisms should have stood out pretty obviously. If they didn't, then I imagine dragging chunks of the essays over here, and pointing them out to you isn't going to make much difference. I'm not too interested in going into that sort of work only to have you handwave it away or something. If you'd like to discuss one of the essays here, I'd be more than happy to chime in if I have anything to add.

  13. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  14. #39
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    I'm disappointed in how few people actually read anything at all from the project before deciding what it was so I'll just encourage people to read the articles and give one broad example of the first essay, which is the only one I've read deliberately and slowly so far.

    Contrary to the general perception of the 1619 Project expressed here, the opening essay (by Nikole Hannah-Jones, the driving force behind the project) does not seek to destroy American democracy or reduce America's greatness or anything like that. Hannah-Jones begins with an account of her veteran father proudly flying the American flag and her bewilderment that black Americans -- who had built the very foundation and power of the country while slaves and still, as freemen, saw themselves forced outside of its protections and privileges -- could have such patriotism. Her essay is about finding that patriotism and finding it in the work and suffering of black Americans throughout the nation's long history (yes, longer than the 1776 date suggests). And, in finding that patriotism expressed by her father, grandmother and countless other black Americans who loved their country even as it was enslaving or persecuting them, Hannah-Jones writes that black Americans made American democracy true and no longer universal claims on paper that were selectively applied to white men.

    It's an essay about the perfection of American democracy, not its destruction.

    --Sam
    Reality:

    About every nation that exist has been built on the backs of slaves or the poor.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  15. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
  16. #40
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Exactly, the left keeps rubbing our face in it, opening old wounds. And the fact it lines up with their push to paint Trump as a racist, and by extension his supporters.
    You have to remember what a racist is, to a modern liberal:

    - anyone who is not a liberal, is racist by default.

    The goal is to put you on the defensive and you prove a negative, that youíre not a racist by default so they donít have to defend their poor policies and terrible logic.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  17. Amen seer amen'd this post.

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