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The irony of the New York Times’ 1619 Project...

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  • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Yet others reached the same conclusion. Why are you bringing up big data could be used to get demographic information when there’s no evidence that Zillow and other online listing agencies use any sort of race profiling to keep blacks from living in affluent neighborhoods by hiding listings? I’m in the military and have rented, bought, and sold houses. Thus far, I have seen no difference in search criteria between work computers, the app, the website through my phone, a public computer, and my personal computer and don’t recall different results, based on the computer I used. Looks like you’re trying to mud up the waters, to imply that you have no evidence it is happening, but it could. Funny, I thought liberals were all about evidence and facts, not what if’s and maybes.
    If the algorithms were doing that on Zillow and Realtor.com then it wouldn't be an accident, it would be programmed into the search engines and even google and the other data aggregates. Which means that all of those sites and companies are racists. We already know they are liberal, but now apparently they are all white supremacists who are conspiring to keep the black man down.

    I want Sam to say that is what he believes is happening.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      If the algorithms were doing that on Zillow and Realtor.com then it wouldn't be an accident, it would be programmed into the search engines and even google and the other data aggregates. Which means that all of those sites and companies are racists. We already know they are liberal, but now apparently they are all white supremacists who are conspiring to keep the black man down.

      I want Sam to say that is what he believes is happening.
      That's untrue; we've seen numerous cases where implicit, not explicit, bias was responsible for AI discrimination. And I did not claim it was happening at Zillow (or Google) but that littlepixie's claim that online real estate eliminates the opportunity for racial discrimination is unsound.

      This mirrors a theme among left/right race debates: many on the right seem to not comprehend that racism exists in more forms than explicit racial animus and so construe any accusation of racism as a personal character accusation.

      --Sam
      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sam View Post
        This mirrors a theme among left/right race debates: many on the right seem to not comprehend that racism exists in more forms than explicit racial animus and so construe any accusation of racism as a personal character accusation.

        --Sam
        And on the other hand, the left often finds racism and offence in places that are almost certainly unwarranted. The truth is probably closer to the middle, racism does exist in forms that are more implicit than explicit, but it's not the all pervasive boogieman that some have made it out to be.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sam View Post
          That's untrue; we've seen numerous cases where implicit, not explicit, bias was responsible for AI discrimination. And I did not claim it was happening at Zillow (or Google) but that littlepixie's claim that online real estate eliminates the opportunity for racial discrimination is unsound.

          This mirrors a theme among left/right race debates: many on the right seem to not comprehend that racism exists in more forms than explicit racial animus and so construe any accusation of racism as a personal character accusation.

          --Sam
          Exactly. Though there is explicit racism around, a lot of what exists out there are assumptions or experience based decisions people make without realizing it whose net effect disadvantages the average black person.

          The hard truth is, there are more black people in jails, and a disproportionate amount of the crime we see on the news is committed by black people, so the fear or perceptions that motivate say (as an example) 'white flight' as it exists today, whether it exists in the real for a specific black family moving in down the street, exists in enough of our minds at one level or another that its net effect still boils down to racism, though its source is not the idea that somehow black people are fundamentally inferior to white people. And though many of us, maybe most here, would NOT explicitly reject or be made uncomfortable by a black family moving into the neighborhood the net effect is a complicated interaction of a number of factors and it is not always easy to nail down exactly why things are the way they are. But the bottom line is, if you are black, you are at a disadvantage as things are right now.

          This is what the statistics - the averaging effect of them - helps us see. On the whole, regardless of the fact most white people today do NOT harbor a fundamental belief in racism or the superiority of whites, black people are still working and living at a significant disadvantage to white people.


          Jim
          Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-05-2019, 10:42 AM.
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            And on the other hand, the left often finds racism and offence in places that are almost certainly unwarranted. The truth is probably closer to the middle, racism does exist in forms that are more implicit than explicit, but it's not the all pervasive boogieman that some have made it out to be.
            I would say, on the contrary, that racism is often systemic and deeply embedded in culture, such that we can find plenty of people on the left who regularly practice and uphold racism, with or without knowing it. A whole lot of upper/upper-middle class NIMBY liberals out there who maintain racial segregation by laundering it through "neighborhood value".

            --Sam
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
              That's untrue; we've seen numerous cases where implicit, not explicit, bias was responsible for AI discrimination. And I did not claim it was happening at Zillow (or Google) but that littlepixie's claim that online real estate eliminates the opportunity for racial discrimination is unsound.

              This mirrors a theme among left/right race debates: many on the right seem to not comprehend that racism exists in more forms than explicit racial animus and so construe any accusation of racism as a personal character accusation.

              --Sam
              So you admit having zero evidence that this is happening? You apparently just made it up out of thin air as an objection to LPOT mentioning she uses online searches.

              I can see no purpose in Zillow or Google to even supply the search algorithms with racial data of the neighborhoods or the searchers unless they were closet racists.

              Could they be doing it? Sure, but that would mean that Google/Zillow et all were a bunch of racists.

              You also made the comment that an agent could influence the search results somehow.
              Originally posted by Sam View Post
              Your contention was that the advent of online real estate listings eliminates the opportunity for a real estate agent to actively or passively insert racial discrimination into the home buying process.
              That would be impossible. They have no control over the search algorithms.

              And when LPOT asked you how such a thing could happen, instead of answering, you basically called her ignorant and pretended it would be a waste of your time.

              There is no evidence of any such tampering with online real estate listings or searches. It was just your imaginary objection to LPOT's claim.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                That's untrue; we've seen numerous cases where implicit, not explicit, bias was responsible for AI discrimination. And I did not claim it was happening at Zillow (or Google) but that littlepixie's claim that online real estate eliminates the opportunity for racial discrimination is unsound.
                Sam, did you not read what was written? The issue was that realtors were steering blacks and whites into segregated neighborhoods. Modern online searches makes the task of hiding listings nearly impossible and if you think you’re realtor or mortgage broker is a racist, you can find many more realtors and mortgage brokers by online searches. The days of being stuck are over. Your response of AI’s can be racist is about as relevant as saying, “I like eggs.” You have no evidence that Zillow or realtor.com’s search results are racist, but who needs evidence when mere possibility that they might be racist is good enough? I think you’re racist, now prove you’re not a racist. See the impossibility of this task? You stack the deck in your favor and attempt to impress us because your hand has 4 aces. You made the claim, now it is your job to prove it, not mine to disprove.

                This mirrors a theme among left/right race debates: many on the right seem to not comprehend that racism exists in more forms than explicit racial animus and so construe any accusation of racism as a personal character accusation.
                And leftist have a tendency to see racism behind every blade of grass and when they have no evidence of racism, they make up something and claim its possible its racism, so it’s racism.
                Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 09-05-2019, 10:58 AM.
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • Also online real estate search sites are not using deep dive data or AI. They are basically simple search engines that return results based on selected criteria of the user: Desired location, price range, type of house, number of bedrooms, blah, blah, blah.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    Exactly. Though there is explicit racism around, a lot of what exists out there are assumptions or experience based decisions people make without realizing it whose net effect disadvantages the average black person.

                    The hard truth is, there are more black people in jails, and a disproportionate amount of the crime we see on the news is committed by black people, so the fear or perceptions that motivate say (as an example) 'white flight' as it exists today, whether it exists in the real for a specific black family moving in down the street, exists in enough of our minds at one level or another that its net effect still boils down to racism, though its source is not the idea that somehow black people are fundamentally inferior to white people. And though many of us, maybe most here, would NOT explicitly reject or be made uncomfortable by a black family moving into the neighborhood the net effect is a complicated interaction of a number of factors and it is not always easy to nail down exactly why things are the way they are. But the bottom line is, if you are black, you are at a disadvantage as things are right now.

                    This is what the statistics - the averaging effect of them - helps us see. On the whole, regardless of the fact most white people today do NOT harbor a fundamental belief in racism or the superiority of whites, black people are still working and living at a significant disadvantage to white people.


                    Jim
                    We just moved into our neighborhood and we have a black neighbor a few houses down. Do you know what our first thought was?

                    “I wonder if they have kids our kid’s age?”

                    This post reveals more about you than it does your opponents.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      So you admit having zero evidence that this is happening? You apparently just made it up out of thin air as an objection to LPOT mentioning she uses online searches.

                      I can see no purpose in Zillow or Google to even supply the search algorithms with racial data of the neighborhoods or the searchers unless they were closet racists.

                      Could they be doing it? Sure, but that would mean that Google/Zillow et all were a bunch of racists.

                      You also made the comment that an agent could influence the search results somehow.
                      No, that's not what it would mean. If happening (and Google has found discrimination in its search algorithms before), it either means the algorithms were intentionally coded to racially discriminate or the algorithms were coded in such a way that implicit biases create discriminatory results.


                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      That would be impossible. They have no control over the search algorithms.

                      And when LPOT asked you how such a thing could happen, instead of answering, you basically called her ignorant and pretended it would be a waste of your time.

                      There is no evidence of any such tampering with online real estate listings or searches. It was just your imaginary objection to LPOT's claim.
                      This is a lack of understanding how big data and machine algorithms work across the internet. What you see -- what gets featured, how listings are ranked, etc., is ever-more dependent on vast databases of user profiles, such that even if an algorithm doesn't know your name or specific identity, it can approximate your "features" quite well. Companies that don't collect and track this data themselves pay for it.

                      So whether or not is is happening is a matter of proving racial discrimination is occurring. Whether it can happen is a matter of technical feasibility. littlepixie is saying that it can't happen, that the advent of online real estate listings has eliminated the opportunity for racial discrimination because she can just go online and "see the houses".

                      But that's not how search engines, real estate listings, or shopping behaviors work.

                      --Sam
                      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Also online real estate search sites are not using deep dive data or AI. They are basically simple search engines that return results based on selected criteria of the user: Desired location, price range, type of house, number of bedrooms, blah, blah, blah.
                        Online real estate listers utilize big data. They would be at a severe disadvantage with competitors if they didn't.
                        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                          No, that's not what it would mean. If happening (and Google has found discrimination in its search algorithms before), it either means the algorithms were intentionally coded to racially discriminate or the algorithms were coded in such a way that implicit biases create discriminatory results.




                          This is a lack of understanding how big data and machine algorithms work across the internet. What you see -- what gets featured, how listings are ranked, etc., is ever-more dependent on vast databases of user profiles, such that even if an algorithm doesn't know your name or specific identity, it can approximate your "features" quite well. Companies that don't collect and track this data themselves pay for it.

                          So whether or not is is happening is a matter of proving racial discrimination is occurring. Whether it can happen is a matter of technical feasibility. littlepixie is saying that it can't happen, that the advent of online real estate listings has eliminated the opportunity for racial discrimination because she can just go online and "see the houses".

                          But that's not how search engines, real estate listings, or shopping behaviors work.

                          --Sam
                          So have you ever used Zillow? My guess is, no?
                          Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 09-05-2019, 11:43 AM.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                            No, that's not what it would mean. If happening (and Google has found discrimination in its search algorithms before), it either means the algorithms were intentionally coded to racially discriminate or the algorithms were coded in such a way that implicit biases create discriminatory results.




                            This is a lack of understanding how big data and machine algorithms work across the internet. What you see -- what gets featured, how listings are ranked, etc., is ever-more dependent on vast databases of user profiles, such that even if an algorithm doesn't know your name or specific identity, it can approximate your "features" quite well. Companies that don't collect and track this data themselves pay for it.

                            So whether or not is is happening is a matter of proving racial discrimination is occurring. Whether it can happen is a matter of technical feasibility. littlepixie is saying that it can't happen, that the advent of online real estate listings has eliminated the opportunity for racial discrimination because she can just go online and "see the houses".

                            But that's not how search engines, real estate listings, or shopping behaviors work.

                            --Sam
                            See my later post, the real estate listing sites are not using AI to find your listings, they are using selected criteria that you choose. They don't care who you are, or what color you are. They just return the listings that fit your criteria. Basic SQL database functions. Not some AI using deep data collected about you.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              See my later post, the real estate listing sites are not using AI to find your listings, they are using selected criteria that you choose. They don't care who you are, or what color you are. They just return the listings that fit your criteria. Basic SQL database functions. Not some AI using deep data collected about you.
                              They are using AI. I don't see how someone could even claim they aren't without spending the short amount of time it takes checking the claim.

                              --Sam
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                                Online real estate listers utilize big data. They would be at a severe disadvantage with competitors if they didn't.
                                Did you even read that? It is talking about two different things: targeted advertising on the site, and how it gathers results for things like price comparisons, historical data and school and crime reports. Stuff you might want to know about a listing.

                                Not how it finds what you are looking for. The search engine is basic. The information it contains is more complex.

                                Comment

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