Originally posted by Adrift
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The irony of the New York Times’ 1619 Project...
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostSam, rereading my last few posts in the light of day, I'd like to apologize to you for the tone I took. I was clearly frustrated with the repetitive nature of the conversation, and my replies were not helpful or constructive.
-Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Been sitting on this piece of commentary since early yesterday -- its premise deals largely with the more hysteric Twitterheads' response to the 1619 Project and the content still seems more likely to steer the thread into tangents and fights. But I think Levitz does get a pretty crucial difference in how many people are approaching the project and a genuine discussion point on how the project should be approached.
Levitz identifies much of the "histrionic" criticisms from folks like Erick Erickson as arising out of a desire to maintain a particular ethnic mythology — in this case, the mythology of American exceptionalism that places white groups and historical figures in the key areas of focus. The 1619 Project debuted with the publishers explicitly challenging this framing, saying that the project's intent was to realign or refocus the American mythology around the efforts, experiences, and influence of black Americans — first through their experiences during slavery and then through their experiences leading up to the 1965 Civil Rights Act and beyond.
To many, this refocusing appears intended as a complete replacement: a nullification of white accomplishment and identity to be replaced with an alien conception of black identity, like the effort to cancel out Christopher Columbus and instead celebrate Indigenous Peoples' Day. To others, it is better seen as adding to and correcting aspects of our national history and mythology, replacing the subject in a narrow field-of-view with a broader range of subjects, each its own legitimate "center" of the picture.
And that seems to be the undercurrent of debate here: some appear to be arguing that Hannah-Jones and others are wrong to center black Americans' experiences to the exclusion or reduction of white Americans' experiences. The counter-argument, as I see it, isn't that Hannah-Jones and others are so much saying "But for black Americans, these things couldn't happen" as they are saying "You can't understand American history and progress without understanding that these things did happen." The 1619 Project attempt to refocus, in other words, is not meant to replace but to more fully inform and, by informing, illuminate parts of a picture that have been kept in shadow through the use of a too-narrow spotlight.
So far as I've read (Hannah-Jones, Desmond, Interlandi, Bouie), that distinction has held true. Whether it's true for all the essays or the project in full, I won't know until I've gone through it all. But most of the non-technical arguments I've seen swirling around the project in the past few days all seem tied to a debate over which of these two things the 1619 Project is trying to achieve.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostAnd that seems to be the undercurrent of debate here: some appear to be arguing that Hannah-Jones and others are wrong to center black Americans' experiences to the exclusion or reduction of white Americans' experiences. The counter-argument, as I see it, isn't that Hannah-Jones and others are so much saying "But for black Americans, these things couldn't happen" as they are saying "You can't understand American history and progress without understanding that these things did happen." The 1619 Project attempt to refocus, in other words, is not meant to replace but to more fully inform and, by informing, illuminate parts of a picture that have been kept in shadow through the use of a too-narrow spotlight.
-SamAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Since you appear to believe that racial discrimination is tolerable when the underlying intent is partisan and not "racist", I think you might not be the ideal audience for this sort of discussion.
--Sam
Originally posted by seer View PostThat is a charitable reading. So Sam what part of this history (save personal stories) did you or we not know about? That were kept in the shadows (be specific please). Black history has been front and center ever since I was high school in the 60s."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostSince you appear to believe that racial discrimination is tolerable when the underlying intent is partisan and not "racist", I think you might not be the ideal audience for this sort of discussion.
--SamLast edited by seer; 08-24-2019, 06:54 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI never said that Sam, that is a lie.
If I'm wrong, great. Still leaves me wondering why the issue of black disenfranchisement isn't a "real example" of racism to you. I would, at minimum, expect you to denounce all such efforts at racial and ethnic voter suppression going forward.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View Post"Appears" means that it's my perception, stemming from post #45, post #60, and the fact that I've never seen you express any outrage or even discomfort with Republican politicians disenfranchising black Americans for partisan purpose.
If I'm wrong, great. Still leaves me wondering why the issue of black disenfranchisement isn't a "real example" of racism to you. I would, at minimum, expect you to denounce all such efforts at racial and ethnic voter suppression going forward.
--SamAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI said nothing about gerrymandering being good or evil. I said both sides do it, and that what happened in North Carolina was not raced based.
We could get into why extreme partisan gerrymandering often uses racial discrimination as a method (again using North Carolina Republicans) but the example in question was NC Republicans specifically targeting black voters by commissioning a study on photo identification by race and using the data to disenfranchise them.
If you look at that and say "That's not raced based because Republicans just want to win elections" then you've got more basic work to do before you can tackle the competing claims around the 1619 Project.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostDemonstrating how unmedia-savvy I am, I honestly had no idea that this was getting national attention till I saw it plastered on the front page of a newspaper this afternoon."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by seer View PostI said nothing about gerrymandering being good or evil. I said both sides do it, and that what happened in North Carolina was not raced based.
I will ask again Sam, if blacks voted mostly for Republicans would that gerrymandering have happened? We both know the answer - so it wasn't race based. And you did not answer this question - what history was kept in the shadows?
And one of those things makes it racism.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 08-24-2019, 09:33 PM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Adding Bret Stephens' & Jamelle Bouie's NYT commentaries to this thought, as I think they illustrate the dialectic well.
Originally posted by Sam View PostBeen sitting on this piece of commentary since early yesterday -- its premise deals largely with the more hysteric Twitterheads' response to the 1619 Project and the content still seems more likely to steer the thread into tangents and fights. But I think Levitz does get a pretty crucial difference in how many people are approaching the project and a genuine discussion point on how the project should be approached.
Levitz identifies much of the "histrionic" criticisms from folks like Erick Erickson as arising out of a desire to maintain a particular ethnic mythology — in this case, the mythology of American exceptionalism that places white groups and historical figures in the key areas of focus. The 1619 Project debuted with the publishers explicitly challenging this framing, saying that the project's intent was to realign or refocus the American mythology around the efforts, experiences, and influence of black Americans — first through their experiences during slavery and then through their experiences leading up to the 1965 Civil Rights Act and beyond.
To many, this refocusing appears intended as a complete replacement: a nullification of white accomplishment and identity to be replaced with an alien conception of black identity, like the effort to cancel out Christopher Columbus and instead celebrate Indigenous Peoples' Day. To others, it is better seen as adding to and correcting aspects of our national history and mythology, replacing the subject in a narrow field-of-view with a broader range of subjects, each its own legitimate "center" of the picture.
And that seems to be the undercurrent of debate here: some appear to be arguing that Hannah-Jones and others are wrong to center black Americans' experiences to the exclusion or reduction of white Americans' experiences. The counter-argument, as I see it, isn't that Hannah-Jones and others are so much saying "But for black Americans, these things couldn't happen" as they are saying "You can't understand American history and progress without understanding that these things did happen." The 1619 Project attempt to refocus, in other words, is not meant to replace but to more fully inform and, by informing, illuminate parts of a picture that have been kept in shadow through the use of a too-narrow spotlight.
So far as I've read (Hannah-Jones, Desmond, Interlandi, Bouie), that distinction has held true. Whether it's true for all the essays or the project in full, I won't know until I've gone through it all. But most of the non-technical arguments I've seen swirling around the project in the past few days all seem tied to a debate over which of these two things the 1619 Project is trying to achieve.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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