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The irony of the New York Times’ 1619 Project...

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Slaves, by the very nature of slavery, could NOT fight for emancipation. They were subsumed into a system that by it's very nature gave them no voice. We seem to be repeating the same argument over and over again. Harriet Tubman, as a slave, wasn't a member of the abolitionist movement.
    This depicts black slaves as sitting around waiting for Union move south to free them instead of the actual history of black slaves freeing themselves and those around them as able. Harriet Tubman was an abolitionist as a slave and continued her efforts to free other slaves after gaining her own freedom. Black slaves routinely and actively participated in freedom efforts, including escapes and rebellions, with and without the assistance of other abolitionists.

    It's notable how you deprive black slaves of agency, to the extent that they "could NOT fight for emancipation". Of course they could and they often did.



    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    It's definitely in the posts. Shall we take it to a poll? I'm absolutely confident my assessment will be justified. Can you say the same?
    I've reviewed every post I've written here. Nothing in any of them that can be construed as mounting a defense of the content of any essay I haven't explicitly stated I've read and nothing opining on the content or the the publisher's intent. Again, it's not a matter of polling people: it's either there in text or it ain't there.


    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    I imagine that limb cracking from underneath you.
    You have a greater faith in the members' appreciation and knowledge of postmodern critical theory than I do.


    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    This is disingenuous. You very obviously came into the thread defending these articles well before you read them. If you think not, I'm again happy to put it to a poll.
    This is an accusation of motive expressly at odds with what I've written. Defamatory, even. It shows an uncharitably stubborn demand that, despite what I've actually argued and written, my motives are hypocritical because that's how you chose to interpret them.

    If you could find such motive in the text, where I've even discussed the content or intent of essays I haven't read, past arguing that they should be thoroughly read before forming a strong opinion, I'd encourage you to do so. It'd be the ethical thing to do.

    If you want to take that route, please do. If not, I don't see much reason to continue here. I will note that I've found a significant error in Jamelle Bouie's piece as I'm reading it: Republicans won the Senate and blocked Obama's SCOTUS nominee in 2014, not 2010. Undoubtedly a typo.

    --Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Sam View Post
      This depicts black slaves as sitting around waiting for Union move south to free them instead of the actual history of black slaves freeing themselves and those around them as able. Harriet Tubman was an abolitionist as a slave and continued her efforts to free other slaves after gaining her own freedom. Black slaves routinely and actively participated in freedom efforts, including escapes and rebellions, with and without the assistance of other abolitionists.

      It's notable how you deprive black slaves of agency, to the extent that they "could NOT fight for emancipation". Of course they could and they often did.
      Enslaved blacks were NOT a major part of the abolitionist movement. No matter how you contort the facts, this is the historical reality. Again, this is not contentious. This is NOT up for debate. This is history.

      Originally posted by Sam View Post
      I've reviewed every post I've written here. Nothing in any of them that can be construed as mounting a defense of the content of any essay I haven't explicitly stated I've read and nothing opining on the content or the the publisher's intent. Again, it's not a matter of polling people: it's either there in text or it ain't there.
      That is CERTAINLY not how you come across. You ABSOLUTELY come across as defending the content of essays you have not read. I assume that you're not interested in a poll, because you know what the results will be.

      Originally posted by Sam View Post
      You have a greater faith in the members' appreciation and knowledge of postmodern critical theory than I do.
      No doubt.


      Originally posted by Sam View Post
      This is an accusation of motive expressly at odds with what I've written. Defamatory, even. It shows an uncharitably stubborn demand that, despite what I've actually argued and written, my motives are hypocritical because that's how you chose to interpret them.
      I suppose you should have zero to worry about when I put it to a poll then.

      Originally posted by Sam View Post
      If you want to take that route, please do. If not, I don't see much reason to continue here.
      Yes, you've self-righteously said as much several times now.

      Originally posted by Sam View Post
      I will note that I've found a significant error in Jamelle Bouie's piece as I'm reading it: Republicans won the Senate and blocked Obama's SCOTUS nominee in 2014, not 2010. Undoubtedly a typo.

      --Sam
      MMm fascinating...

      Comment


      • #78
        The link to my poll can be found here: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...Slavery-Essays

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          The link to my poll can be found here: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...Slavery-Essays
          Why are you putting this to a poll?

          Sam - I haven't followed this, but I disagree very strongly with the idea of trying to get a group of people to pile on you and shame you over your opinions.


          Jim

          ETA: So I've read through the posts. And no, I don't think Sam is defending the essays as a whole, nor is he defending anything he has not read. He is defending certain ideas found in the essays he has read so far against what appears to him to be unfounded criticism of those ideas.
          Last edited by oxmixmudd; 08-24-2019, 08:14 AM.
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            Enslaved blacks were NOT a major part of the abolitionist movement. No matter how you contort the facts, this is the historical reality. Again, this is not contentious. This is NOT up for debate. This is history.
            If you don't mind my stepping in ..

            While Frederick Douglass and Sojourner Truth might disagree, I certainly do. Enslaved blacks were not only a "major part" of the abolitionist movement, they were its foundation, its sine qua non, and the empirical measure of its success or lack thereof. To suggest otherwise, or worse, to proclaim, in all caps no less, that defining them out of the movement is not contentious, is not up for debate, is a non-starter. I find it contentious. This is a debate.

            Without enslaved blacks, the abolitionist movement would not exist.

            Yes, you've self-righteously said as much several times now.
            Allow me to confess that watching Christians campaign against righteousness sets "a tingle up my leg." But then I remember how many friends and family members whom I deeply love and cherish are wounded by these actions.

            Oh what the hell, I'm an atheist.

            Please persist.

            I'll save you a seat by the fire.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              Slaves, by the very nature of slavery, could NOT fight for emancipation.
              Gabriel’s revolt: In 1800, he was savvy, armed and determined to end slavery in Virginia’s capital
              In Richmond, he worked alongside working-class white and free black artisans, plus other leased slaves with some degree of autonomy. He was exposed to rhetoric and news of liberty — not only of Jefferson’s dictum that “all men are created equal” but also of the successful slave revolt in Saint-Domingue — what is now Haiti.

              Beyond the rebuttal, I'm wondering why negating the black content of abolitionism is so important to you. This appears to be far more than a mere animosity toward history.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                Gabriel’s revolt: In 1800, he was savvy, armed and determined to end slavery in Virginia’s capital
                In Richmond, he worked alongside working-class white and free black artisans, plus other leased slaves with some degree of autonomy. He was exposed to rhetoric and news of liberty — not only of Jefferson’s dictum that “all men are created equal” but also of the successful slave revolt in Saint-Domingue — what is now Haiti.

                Beyond the rebuttal, I'm wondering why negating the black content of abolitionism is so important to you. This appears to be far more than a mere animosity toward history.
                IIRC, numerous historians have noted the dearth of armed revolts among slaves in the British colonies in North America and later the U.S. Various theories have been offered to explain it.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  IIRC, numerous historians have noted the dearth of armed revolts among slaves in the British colonies in North America and later the U.S. Various theories have been offered to explain it.
                  God fights on the side with bigger guns.

                  Decades ago, on a campus far, far away, I mentioned this, tangentially, in a conversation with a Palestinian (whose brother had been killed in a clash with Israeli soldiers), by noting the archetypical modern exception: the non-violent Indian revolt under the Mahatma Gandhi. The point being, that unlike the series of feckless intifadas, non-violence actually worked.

                  No, I didn't call them "feckless." I was talking to someone still grieving for his brother.

                  While bigger guns settled the American Civil War, it was the non-violent protests of the civil rights movement under MLK, inspired by Gandhi, that cracked the wall separating African Americans from the freedoms to live, work, and study — and vote — in places from which they had previously been prohibited, far too often by violence.

                  The nature of non-violent protest is to replace a physical struggle with a struggle over principles, with victories won not on battlefields, but in the arena of public opinion. I've been following the 1619 series and much of the wider debate since its publication.

                  (Did I mention how much I despise these interactive formats? In its quest to make reading more approachable on mobile devices, where citizens are forced into a correspondence that is literally all thumbs, the grey lady is elbowing the eyes of those of us who still prefer to read on the same devices that advantage the touch typist.

                  You should hear the oohs and aahs of my students as they watch eight fingers and a thumb fill a page in the time two thumbs couldn't write a paragraph.)

                  </get-off-my-lawn>

                  To defensibly move debate in the arena of public opinion, it's necessary for opinions to be well informed. I generally appreciate Adrift's care in argument, but the flaming swords of his entry here are an exception. No, it's not all right to denounce a series one has only skimmed, or worse, to attempt to summon the vox populi against an opponent, or to hunt for reasons to avoid critical thought by searching out examples where it was avoided by others, or to declare victory in all caps without immediately heading home.

                  1619 is a good series, and to the extent it is imperfect, it remains markedly superior to its contrary offerings to date.

                  And while I'd like to say I'm here to thank Sam for giving me a reason to participate again, the fact is I am once again delaying the administrative work that comes with classes beginning again next week.

                  Hasta la vista, baby.

                  I'll be back.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Hey, Jim!

                    Thanks for reading through - it's good to hear from you.

                    --Sam


                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    Why are you putting this to a poll?

                    Sam - I haven't followed this, but I disagree very strongly with the idea of trying to get a group of people to pile on you and shame you over your opinions.


                    Jim

                    ETA: So I've read through the posts. And no, I don't think Sam is defending the essays as a whole, nor is he defending anything he has not read. He is defending certain ideas found in the essays he has read so far against what appears to him to be unfounded criticism of those ideas.
                    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                      1619 is a good series, and to the extent it is imperfect, it remains markedly superior to its contrary offerings to date.

                      And while I'd like to say I'm here to thank Sam for giving me a reason to participate again, the fact is I am once again delaying the administrative work that comes with classes beginning again next week.

                      Hasta la vista, baby.

                      I'll be back.

                      I'm trying to space out my 1619 Project readings to one per night -- trying to give them weight and time -- and it's creating a backlog on the surrounding commentary, some of which I've heard is very good. My old history professor was pretty excited to get the hard copy, saying this was one of "those events" that gets all sorts of people talking. There have been a couple commentary pieces I've snuck in that have been really good thought pieces on national identity, dissent, etc.

                      I haven't made it far down the rabbit hole with the commentary around Matthew Desmond's piece on slavery & capitalism but this Twitter exchange is a good bit to bookmark and come back to. Thanks for the Cato link; adding it into my OneNote folder on the topic.

                      I think that's a really good point about the 1619 Project's imperfections, too: they definitely exist and leave plenty of room for debate but it appears that a lot of the reaction (mostly knee-jerk) against the project is framing the project as an effort to topple, annihilate, and replace the dominant traditional history rather than an effort to claw back space for equal footing and representation. I imagine that has direct relation to many cultural conflicts and insecurities in America today.

                      Good luck with the administrative slog and upcoming classes,

                      --Sam
                      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        The interactive format the Times uses for the project is truly awful, I agree. I'd be happy to just have a table of contents page but haven't found one.
                        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                          Gabriel’s revolt: In 1800, he was savvy, armed and determined to end slavery in Virginia’s capital
                          In Richmond, he worked alongside working-class white and free black artisans, plus other leased slaves with some degree of autonomy. He was exposed to rhetoric and news of liberty — not only of Jefferson’s dictum that “all men are created equal” but also of the successful slave revolt in Saint-Domingue — what is now Haiti.
                          By "fight" I was referring to fighting in the realm of public and political opinion, not physically fighting. I obviously realize that slaves have been revolting since well before Spartacus. And as we see from your link, poor Gabriel was betrayed and hanged before accomplishing much of anything. The "successful" slave revolt in Saint Dominique was gruesome and barbaric (if you haven't read it, I HIGHLY recommend Madison Smart Bell's All Souls' Rising), and just about all of the whites were either killed or fled the island. Probably wouldn't have played out quite the same way in the US.

                          Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                          Beyond the rebuttal, I'm wondering why negating the black content of abolitionism is so important to you. This appears to be far more than a mere animosity toward history.
                          Negating the black content of abolitionism isn't important to me. What's important to me is an accurate assessment and telling of the historical record.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Sam View Post
                            I haven't made it far down the rabbit hole with the commentary around Matthew Desmond's piece on slavery & capitalism but this Twitter exchange is a good bit to bookmark and come back to.
                            Whew. Thank the gods for that link. For a minute there, I thought I'd have still more reading to follow up on.

                            I imagine that has direct relation to many cultural conflicts and insecurities in America today.

                            Good luck with the administrative slog and upcoming classes,

                            --Sam
                            My unlamented and unceremoniously removed chair of last year was finally replaced earlier this week with an old pal, who, thanks Niki!, asked me to pick up one of the classes she was forced to abandon, with an adaptive learning system I'd never heard of before, linked into a blackboard course that turned into a ... hmm lemme check ... yes, a double-dozen length email chain copying the world, three levels of support staff going up to the executive director from one of two vendors, three blackboard administrators, and a partridge in a pear tree, before the process could be completed.

                            Said former chair is now known in the department as "she who shall not be named."

                            Mut. mut. and well played.

                            Thanks for the good thoughts.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              Why are you putting this to a poll?

                              Sam - I haven't followed this, but I disagree very strongly with the idea of trying to get a group of people to pile on you and shame you over your opinions.
                              My goal with the poll is not to shame Sam, but to enlighten, and convince. It's not the only time I've created such polls. I've created polls like this when debating shunyadragon and others in the past as well. It's a way of saying, "look, I don't think I'm crazy for thinking this is how your argument/s comes across. These other people also think it's how you came across." Maybe the other guy isn't aware that they're coming across a certain way. Maybe Sam really doesn't think he's coming across as defending these essays. The hope then is that maybe they'll consider it, and possibly even agree that, "yeah, I guess I can see how you might come to that conclusion." And to be fair, these polls have backfired on me. I remember one debate I had, to my surprise the poll suggested much stronger support for the other guy than I had thought. I was humbled and realized that maybe my argument was too forceful, and I had to rethink my entire approach to the subject.


                              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              ETA: So I've read through the posts. And no, I don't think Sam is defending the essays as a whole, nor is he defending anything he has not read. He is defending certain ideas found in the essays he has read so far against what appears to him to be unfounded criticism of those ideas.
                              Fair enough. Maybe I'm wrong then.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                                If you don't mind my stepping in ..

                                While Frederick Douglass and Sojourner Truth might disagree, I certainly do. Enslaved blacks were not only a "major part" of the abolitionist movement, they were its foundation, its sine qua non, and the empirical measure of its success or lack thereof. To suggest otherwise, or worse, to proclaim, in all caps no less, that defining them out of the movement is not contentious, is not up for debate, is a non-starter. I find it contentious. This is a debate.

                                Without enslaved blacks, the abolitionist movement would not exist.
                                I don't know if it's because you're starting at the tail end, or what, but by "major" I'm not asserting that they were non-prominent. I'm asserting that they were not majority. The abolitionist movement was made up largely of white people, and a number of free black and escaped slaves.



                                Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                                Allow me to confess that watching Christians campaign against righteousness sets "a tingle up my leg." But then I remember how many friends and family members whom I deeply love and cherish are wounded by these actions.

                                Oh what the hell, I'm an atheist.

                                Please persist.

                                I'll save you a seat by the fire.
                                Don't you have some math papers to grade or something?
                                Last edited by Adrift; 08-24-2019, 05:13 PM.

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