The irony of the New York Times’ 1619 Project...

[seer]

Unfortunately your president has made it necessary to talk about it again.

Really Charles? And how was that?

[Sam]

If we already "know" the information in the 1619 Project and agree that information is, overall, accurate then it seems we agree that black Americans have been historical victims of enslavement, theft, discrimination, and exclusion. Such that the wealth of the nation -- much of which can be traced back to that same enslavement and theft -- was systematically denied to black Americans. If we know about and agree with this, it would seem the relevant question is whether we've done enough to right that gigantic wrong.

If not, then it seems appropriate -- even necessary -- to keep talking about it.

--Sam

[seer]

If we already "know" the information in the 1619 Project and agree that information is, overall, accurate then it seems we agree that black Americans have been historical victims of enslavement, theft, discrimination, and exclusion. Such that the wealth of the nation -- much of which can be traced back to that same enslavement and theft -- was systematically denied to black Americans. If we know about and agree with this, it would seem the relevant question is whether we've done enough to right that gigantic wrong.

If not, then it seems appropriate -- even necessary -- to keep talking about it.

--Sam

First "much" of our wealth can not be tied to slavery, second what more is there to be done? It seems this all is moving towards reparations.

[Sam]

First "much" of our wealth can not be tied to slavery, second what more is there to be done? It seems this all is moving towards reparations.

Has the nation ever paid back the vast wealth it stole from black Americans from slavery through redlining?

If not, are reparations owed? Is "hey, sorry about your parents/grandparents/great-grandparents" sufficient?

--Sam

[seer]

Has the nation ever paid back the vast wealth it stole from black Americans from slavery through redlining?

It is not the nation Sam, for the most part it was slave owners who made the wealth. And if you want to go after companies for redlining, if they broke the law, go after them. I had no part in slavery or redlining, nor did I benefit from either in any tangible way. I don't owe reparations to any man...

[Sam]

For someone who ostensibly read Hannah-Jones' opening essay, I don't think you actually absorbed anything other than the word "slavery".

[seer]

For someone who ostensibly read Hannah-Jones' opening essay, I don't think you actually absorbed anything other than the word "slavery".

Sam we can't fix every past transgression, it is impossible. The best we can do is to make sure that all men have equal production under the law. And it would deeply unfair to take my tax dollars to pay for sins I did not commit.

[rogue06]

Has the nation ever paid back the vast wealth it stole from black Americans from slavery through redlining?

If not, are reparations owed? Is "hey, sorry about your parents/grandparents/great-grandparents" sufficient?

--Sam

So we should dismiss all of the blood spilled freeing the slaves as insufficient I guess. A war with more casualties than we had during WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam combined. And when we had a much, much smaller population.

And who exactly should pay the reparation and to who?

Should someone who's ancestors fought and died freeing the slaves be held responsible? Or those whose ancestors who came to the U.S. after slavery was abolished? How about people of Asian descent? And should folks who moved here from Africa in recent decades be eligible because they are black^[1]? Or whose ancestors are from the Carribean and were slaves but not in this country?



1. How about forcing blacks who moved here from West Africa to pay reparations because their ancestors profited from selling slaves to slave traders?

[oxmixmudd]

Well I certainly that believe the left hates America. The original sin of slavery can never be forgiven, no matter what we do.

If we had dealt in goodwill with the former slaves and made real efforts to integrate them into our society after they were freed you might have a point. Instead they became an abused and hated subclass, building on past sins. Today far more of the black population lives in drug and crime infested neighborhoods than the white population. They are still very much suffering from the kegacy and consequences of slavery and the abuse and persecution that followed, and there is still a huge amouht of work that needs to done if that legacy is to be removed.

Discussed Jim? We have NOT stopped talking about race since I was a teenager in the 60s.

And there is more yet to be discussed. If we all gave it our very best, it would still take 2 or 3 generations to undo what has been done.


Jim

[seer]

If we had dealt in goodwill with the former slaves and made real efforts to integrate them into our society after they were freed you might have a point. Instead they became an abused and hated subclass, building on past sins. Today far more of the black population lives in drug and crime infested neighborhoods than the white population. They are still very much suffering from the kegacy and consequences of slavery and the abuse and persecution that followed, and there is still a huge amouht of work that needs to done if that legacy is to be removed.
And there is more yet to be discussed. If we all gave it our very best, it would still take 2 or 3 generations to undo what has been done.


Jim

And what is our best Jim, what would you have us do?

[Sam]

So we should dismiss all of the blood spilled freeing the slaves as insufficient I guess. A war with more casualties than we had during WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam combined. And when we had a much, much smaller population.

And who exactly should pay the reparation and to who?

Should someone who's ancestors fought and died freeing the slaves be held responsible? Or those whose ancestors who came to the U.S. after slavery was abolished? How about people of Asian descent? And should folks who moved here from Africa in recent decades be eligible because they are black^[1]? Or whose ancestors are from the Carribean and were slaves but not in this country?



1. How about forcing blacks who moved here from West Africa to pay reparations because their ancestors profited from selling slaves to slave traders?

This resembles the idea behind Erick Erickson's recent weird tweet about Jesus dying for our sins and Union soldiers dying to absolve America's original sin of slavery. It's weird on numerous fronts, not only because the Civil War wasn't fought to free slaves. Emancipation was a tactic by Lincoln during the war and many white people in the Union, like those in the South, continued to mistreat and exploit black Americans after the war.

Let's pay as much attention to "who pays" for reparations that folks here gave to who pays for the $1.5+ trillion 2017 tax cut. Seems fair.

--Sam

[Mountain Man]

No, its when people like you go ballistic and start claiming there's some conspiracy to undermine America over attempts to correct or expand on issues typically glossed over that it looks like you are trying to ignore them.

I think it naive to believe we've reached the point nationally were that would be a reasonable response. The ignorance displayed on this website alone regarding historical racial language ( they should go back where they came from, monkey)
and the history of racism in this country shows we definately still have much that needs to be discussed.

At what point did I "go ballistic and start claiming there's some conspiracy"? Because I really don't remember doing that.

Secondly, who here has displayed ignorance of racist language?

Looking at your examples, the "they should go back where they come from" is a deliberate misquote. What Trump actually said is "So interesting to see 'Progressive' Democrat Congresswomen, who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world (if they even have a functioning government at all), now loudly and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run. Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how it is done."

This is obviously a political statement and not a racist one.

Second, nobody was called "monkey". What DeSantis said was "The last thing we need to do is to monkey this up by trying to embrace a socialist agenda with huge tax increases and bankrupting the state. That is not going to work. That’s not going to be good for Florida."

Again, clearly a political statement and not a racist one.

But we've been over all this before, and I think the general conclusion is that if you're the one hearing "racist dog whistles" everywhere then you might be the one who is racist.

[Mountain Man]

It is not the nation Sam, for the most part it was slave owners who made the wealth. And if you want to go after companies for redlining, if they broke the law, go after them. I had no part in slavery or redlining, nor did I benefit from either in any tangible way. I don't owe reparations to any man...

I think reparations should only be paid by those who actually owned slaves, to those who were actually enslaved.

[rogue06]

This resembles the idea behind Erick Erickson's recent weird tweet about Jesus dying for our sins and Union soldiers dying to absolve America's original sin of slavery. It's weird on numerous fronts, not only because the Civil War wasn't fought to free slaves. Emancipation was a tactic by Lincoln during the war and many white people in the Union, like those in the South, continued to mistreat and exploit black Americans after the war.

Let's pay as much attention to "who pays" for reparations that folks here gave to who pays for the $1.5+ trillion 2017 tax cut. Seems fair.

--Sam

You continue to go off the deep end. Nobody "pays" for allowing someone to keep a bit more of their own money that they earned.

[rogue06]

I think reparations should only be paid by those who actually owned slaves, to those who were actually enslaved.

I want reparations for my grandfather's barn that was burned and livestock stolen because he was German when he was off fighting the Germans during WWI.


Gimme, Gimme, GIMME!!!