The irony of the New York Times’ 1619 Project...

[Sam]

"Nobody pays for reductions in government revenue during deficit-plagued budgets" is indeed a novel theory.

You continue to go off the deep end. Nobody "pays" for allowing someone to keep a bit more of their own money that they earned.

[oxmixmudd]

And what is our best Jim, what would you have us do?

Well, we could start by not pretending there is nothing to do.

Somehow we have to break the cycle of crime and oppression that exists in the poorest, predominantly black neighborhoods.

If we actually believe we are truly all equal, truly that there are no fundamental differences between the capabilities of white people and black people, then we must accept that the vast differences in pay and achievement, percentages of the population in our prisons, etc are almost completely environmental.

And that means there is necessarily something in the environment of the average black person that is both different and which disadvantages the average black person.

So we, the white people, have got to stop complaining when people try to identify or change what it is that is different between the average white environnent and the average black environment.

But even more, we have to understand that this environmental difference exists because of what the people in charge did to make sure it would exist. In that sense our ancestors, and the history of our culture, is our reponsibility. We have very much benefitted from what they did. So we very much, the ones that have inherited and benefitted from the better environment, have a moral responsibility to work to undo what our ancestors did , and in sone instances what our uncles and grandfathers and even some of our friends have done.

We have to try,and we have to stop shouting down those that try.

And we have to recognize that fixing what has been done will not be easy, nor cheap.

Jim

[oxmixmudd]

I think reparations should only be paid by those who actually owned slaves, to those who were actually enslaved.

Sorry, it would be an egriegious moral lapse to do so. The oppression of black people from the beginnings of slavery up until well after the civil rights amendment and subsequent legislation is on all of us. And if we have not directly contributed to the opression if black people, then to the extent that we resist our moral responaibility to correct what has been done to them, we then also join with our ancestors in their active oppression.

Jim

[Mountain Man]

Sorry, it would be an egriegious moral lapse to do so. The oppression of black people from the beginnings of slavery up until well after the civil rights amendment and subsequent legislation is on all of us. And if we have not directly contributed to the opression if black people, then to the extent that we resist our moral responaibility to correct what has been done to them, we then also join with our ancestors in their active oppression.

Jim

I always took you for someone who was smart enough not to fall for the "critical race theory" nonsense. No worries. I shall lower my estimation of you accordingly.

[oxmixmudd]

I always took you for someone who was smart enough not to fall for the "critical race theory" nonsense. No worries. I shall lower my estimation of you

Translation: MM has no meaningful challenge to the point made.

[Mountain Man]

Translation: MM has no meaningful challenge to the point made.

Translation: Asking me to take critical race theory seriously would be like asking you to take the flat earth theory seriously. It's abject nonsense that deserves no more than a dismissive wave of the hand.

[oxmixmudd]

Translation: Asking me to take critical race theory seriously would be like asking you to take the flat earth theory seriously. It's abject nonsense that deserves no more than a dismissive wave of the hand.

You know, i dont know what the critical race theory is, and though I'll look it up after I make this post, it really doesnt mstter. You did not address the content of my post. Black people have heen oppressed in this country for centuries. And a few decades of half-hearted attempts to correct the problems mixed in with continued racism and oppression simply cant even come close to undoing the damage done.

Jim

[Mountain Man]

You know, i dont know what the critical race theory is, and though I'll look it up after I make this post, it really doesnt mstter. You did not address the content of my post. Black people have heen oppressed in this country for centuries. And a few decades of half-hearted attempts to correct the problems mixed in with continued racism and oppression simply cant even come close to undoing the damage done.

Jim

Again, this is like a flat earther complaining that you didn't address the content of his post. Yes, black people were oppressed in the past, but that has nothing to do with me, so why should I be expected to pay restitution?

[oxmixmudd]

Again, this is like a flat earther complaining that you didn't address the content of his post. Yes, black people were oppressed in the past, but that has nothing to do with me, so why should I be expected to pay restitution?

Bovine feces. And im not talking about individually 'paying restitution' im talking about the fact we have a responsibility to make things right as a nation and as a people.

Do you also believe that if you never had children, your shouldn't have to pay the portion of taxes that go to provide public education?


Jim

[rogue06]

"Nobody pays for reductions in government revenue during deficit-plagued budgets" is indeed a novel theory.

First, FWICT revenues have gone up but then so has spending -- and as usual even more.

Second, it is only novel if you don't think that the money someone earns isn't theirs but the governments.

[rogue06]

Bovine feces. And im not talking about individually 'paying restitution' im talking about the fact we have a responsibility to make things right as a nation and as a people.

Do you also believe that if you never had children, your shouldn't have to pay the portion of taxes that go to provide public education?


Jim

So you think that the government ought to pay restitution blithely ignoring the bit that the government would use the money they take from individuals.

Now what were you saying about "not talking about individually 'paying restitution'" again?

[firstfloor]

Episode 2 is available now; The Daily podcast.
Keep listening and learning your history.

[Mountain Man]

Bovine feces. And im not talking about individually 'paying restitution' im talking about the fact we have a responsibility to make things right as a nation and as a people.

Do you also believe that if you never had children, your shouldn't have to pay the portion of taxes that go to provide public education?


Jim

We have made things right as a nation. Any black person in America today who puts his mind to it has every chance of succeeding, and this has been true for at least two-generations. Unfortunately, we still have an entire political party telling blacks that they're oppressed and can't succeed without the help of their white betters.

And likening reparations to public education is absurd. One is an ongoing program that continues to benefit all of society (at least in theory) while the other is based on the false and frankly racist premise that I, simply by being born white, am somehow indirectly responsible for something that happened in the past that had nothing at all to do with me.

[oxmixmudd]

So you think that the government ought to pay restitution blithely ignoring the bit that the government would use the money they take from individuals.

Now what were you saying about "not talking about individually 'paying restitution'" again?

I dont believe the solution lies in 'paying restitution'. That would be a foolish waste of resources and would not solve the actual problem. It likely would make some things worse. What we as a society owe the black population is an equal chance at birth to what a white person has. Part of that is changing attitudes and changing destructive cultural patterns on both sides. Part of that is raising the average income level, but you have to train people how to do jobs that are worth more, you cant just give them money, and you have to eliminate or extract people from the violent and crime infested environments that perpetuate the difference. And that will involve a lot of money and educational resources over a generation or maybe two.

Jim

[seer]

Well, we could start by not pretending there is nothing to do.

Somehow we have to break the cycle of crime and oppression that exists in the poorest, predominantly black neighborhoods.

If we actually believe we are truly all equal, truly that there are no fundamental differences between the capabilities of white people and black people, then we must accept that the vast differences in pay and achievement, percentages of the population in our prisons, etc are almost completely environmental.

And that means there is necessarily something in the environment of the average black person that is both different and which disadvantages the average black person.

So we, the white people, have got to stop complaining when people try to identify or change what it is that is different between the average white environnent and the average black environment.

But even more, we have to understand that this environmental difference exists because of what the people in charge did to make sure it would exist. In that sense our ancestors, and the history of our culture, is our reponsibility. We have very much benefitted from what they did. So we very much, the ones that have inherited and benefitted from the better environment, have a moral responsibility to work to undo what our ancestors did , and in sone instances what our uncles and grandfathers and even some of our friends have done.

We have to try,and we have to stop shouting down those that try.

And we have to recognize that fixing what has been done will not be easy, nor cheap.

Jim

Jim haven't we poured billions of dollars into the inner cities through welfare transfers? Haven't we had decades of affirmative action? As far as I can tell it hasn't helped much. How can a peoples prosper when 70% of the men won't care for their own children? And why is single parenthood the norm in poor black neighbors? When in the bad old days when racism was far worse it was the exception (around 20%)?