What Is Man?

[Doug Shaver]

But in your world a Stalin or Mother Teresa come to the same end

Is the end all that matters?

So fear restrains you?

Fear of punishment? No, not usually. I know how to do immoral things without getting caught.

But let's be honest some people who don't take responsibility flourish.

Some of them have a lot more money than I do. Is that all there is to flourishing? Are you going to tell me that I cannot have a good life unless I'm wealthy?

[seer]

Kierkegaard his, those who burned heretics theirs...

Your argument doesn't work when theists disagree about what objective meaning is. You might have a point, but you underscore it with cheap references to psychotic despots.

Of course it does. Objective meaning (because it is objective and exists apart from our personal understanding) would still be there and valid even if we all disagree on what it was. And it wasn't a cheap reference - sometimes to make a point clear it helps to point to extremes.

It couldn't be anymore on topic, since you're talking about purpose and meaning. If the fall was meant to unfold before perfection could be attained, you have a problem presenting a coherent definition of those two terms.

No, because no matter how the fall happened it doesn't touch on the objective meaning for our lives. Broadly stated; To love God with all our heart and to love our neighbors as ourselves.

[seer]

Is the end all that matters?

Well does anything matter? You, me, all of humanity, and probably the universe itself, will one day be lifeless. Eat, drink and be merry - for tomorrow we die....

Some of them have a lot more money than I do. Is that all there is to flourishing? Are you going to tell me that I cannot have a good life unless I'm wealthy?

No not at all. The only point is that what you consider good is relative. Others think it is good to be selfish. And they are just as correct as you - no right or wrong, just preference.

[whag]

Of course it does. Objective meaning (because it is objective and exists apart from our personal understanding) would still be there and valid even if we all disagree on what it was.

Do you understand it or not?

And it wasn't a cheap reference - sometimes to make a point clear it helps to point to extremes.

David's war raids. Luther's anti-semitism. Calvin's Geneva -- extreme counterexamples of theists who did hideous things. Your argument wants to demonstrate that objective meaning is more dignified, but you ignore the fact that religious objective meaning is expressed in horrible ways. So atheist commies oppressed people. What about Luther who called for Jews to be oppressed and who strongly influenced and gave credence to German antisemitism.

For every extreme example, there is an equally extreme counterexample.

No, because no matter how the fall happened it doesn't touch on the objective meaning for our lives. Broadly stated; To love God with all our heart and to love our neighbors as ourselves.

You have it in the wrong order. Compulsory love of an invisible entity is an absurd concept. From my experience and education, I've concluded that extreme love must come first. The action of love (I assume you mean more than washing your neighbor's car for free) grows a person and causes the numinous feelings, not vice versa.

[Doug Shaver]

Well does anything matter?

My life matters to me.

Some of them have a lot more money than I do. Is that all there is to flourishing? Are you going to tell me that I cannot have a good life unless I'm wealthy?

The only point is that what you consider good is relative.

My opinion is just my opinion, yes. At least I will admit that. I'm not pretending that I got my opinion from any higher authority.

Others think it is good to be selfish.

There are many things about which human beings disagree. The nature of goodness is only one of them. We may wish we could settle the matter by letting God decide, but wishing does not make it so.

no right or wrong, just preference.

There are facts relevant to the settlement of any moral dispute. Those facts obtain without regard to anyone's preference.

[JimL]

The Christian / Hebrew view is that man is the unique image bearer of God. Loved by God and created for a purpose. With inherent worth and value, sharing characteristics with others in the animal kingdom, but different, more. A creature with hope. If that is not the case, then men are the result of blind and purposeless forces that did not have him in mind. With no more inherent value than a common house fly (A Rat Is a Pig Is a Dog Is a Boy), with no overriding purpose or goal - final hopelessness. Nothingness and nonexistence being the fate of all living creatures.

That the truth may not be pretty from your perspective is not enough of a reason to disregard it, nor is a lie because of it's perceived beauty, reason enough to accept it. Thats all this argument amounts to seer. The other animals don't need hope, or fear non-existence, only we do.

[firstfloor]

The Christian / Hebrew view is that man is the unique image bearer of God. Loved by God and created for a purpose. With inherent worth and value, sharing characteristics with others in the animal kingdom, but different, more. A creature with hope. If that is not the case, then men are the result of blind and purposeless forces that did not have him in mind. With no more inherent value than a common house fly (A Rat Is a Pig Is a Dog Is a Boy), with no overriding purpose or goal - final hopelessness. Nothingness and nonexistence being the fate of all living creatures.

If God had puked the Universe into existence after some heavy drinking and a hot curry He might not have any purpose for you at all. The stories that people tell themselves about their gods simply reflect their own condition (we make gods in our image not the other way about – you just have to count them to know the truth) and it is a terrible mistake to think your life becomes meaningful by abdication. Whether we are religious or not, we all play the same game of life and if there is purpose you have no more knowledge of it than anyone else.

No creature can experience nothingness so it is not something to worry about – it is not the fate of anything. Your puzzle is rooted in your misapprehension that you will survive your death. At that point, the meaning of (your) life is not revealed; it goes away. In other words, life is its own meaning.

[NormATive]

If God had puked the Universe into existence after some heavy drinking and a hot curry He might not have any purpose for you at all. The stories that people tell themselves about their gods simply reflect their own condition (we make gods in our image not the other way about – you just have to count them to know the truth) and it is a terrible mistake to think your life becomes meaningful by abdication. Whether we are religious or not, we all play the same game of life and if there is purpose you have no more knowledge of it than anyone else.

No creature can experience nothingness so it is not something to worry about – it is not the fate of anything. Your puzzle is rooted in your misapprehension that you will survive your death. At that point, the meaning of (your) life is not revealed; it goes away. In other words, life is its own meaning.

I couldn't have said this better myself. We are all responsible for what we make of this life. I, for one, plan to live life to its fullest - with abandon! Whether or not there is a deity sitting in approval is just as meaningless as eternal oblivion.

NORM

[seer]

In other words, life is its own meaning.

Sure you have your meaning, Stalin his, Hitler his, Mother Teresa hers, etc... And no one's meaning is more correct or valid than anyone else's.

[seer]

That the truth may not be pretty from your perspective is not enough of a reason to disregard it, nor is a lie because of it's perceived beauty, reason enough to accept it. Thats all this argument amounts to seer. The other animals don't need hope, or fear non-existence, only we do.

But Jim, why should I believe that is the "truth?" Besides as a Christian I believe all mean bear the image of God and intuitively know that they are not merely the product of blind, non-rational forces. That we are something more. Of course being sinners we can suppress that knowledge until it becomes unrecognizable.

[firstfloor]

Sure you have your meaning, Stalin his, Hitler his, Mother Teresa hers, etc... And no one's meaning is more correct or valid than anyone else's.

Do you mean that you don’t trust yourself to know what is correct and so you abdicate that responsibility to someone else? Are you not a self-reliant being?

[seer]

Do you mean that you don’t trust yourself to know what is correct and so you abdicate that responsibility to someone else? Are you not a self-reliant being?

Yes and no.

[JimL]

But Jim, why should I believe that is the "truth?" Besides as a Christian I believe all mean bear the image of God and intuitively know that they are not merely the product of blind, non-rational forces. That we are something more. Of course being sinners we can suppress that knowledge until it becomes unrecognizable.

Thats a rationalization seer. All men do not "know" and therefore do not believe what you think that you "know" and believe. You can call it suppressed knowledge or unrecognizable knowledge or whatever, but whatever you call it, if they don't believe it then they don't know it, it isn't knowledge to them. As a matter of fact you don't "know" it either, you only believe it, just as you explained it in the above quote. And what makes you believe it, not knowledge, because you don't know, you can't know. So what is it? Its personal experience, the way you were raised perhaps, your life experiences, and all that entails, but not knowledge. So some believe and some disbelieve, but whatever reasons they give for their stance, it is not because they have knowledge of God.

[seer]

Thats a rationalization seer. All men do not "know" and therefore do not believe what you think that you "know" and believe. You can call it suppressed knowledge or unrecognizable knowledge or whatever, but whatever you call it, if they don't believe it then they don't know it, it isn't knowledge to them. As a matter of fact you don't "know" it either, you only believe it, just as you explained it in the above quote. And what makes you believe it, not knowledge, because you don't know, you can't know. So what is it? Its personal experience, the way you were raised perhaps, your life experiences, and all that entails, but not knowledge. So some believe and some disbelieve, but whatever reasons they give for their stance, it is not because they have knowledge of God.

ok

[Doug Shaver]

And no one's meaning is more correct or valid than anyone else's.

You consider that a problem, I take it?