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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    Why won't you answer? Nature with out Divine direction could not have done it - correct?
    I already answered the questions in detail.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      God created the universe Jim.
      So you believe, though there is no evidence for your belief. The physical laws are eternal no matter how you look at it, whether in the mind of a god, or in the nature of an eternal Cosmos.

      He made all of the wee little quantum thingamabobs, the various forces and how the particles interact, and everything. Thus as he made everything, and how they work, the physical laws that describe how they work came into being. The laws are not things in of themselves, they just describe how the universe works. Which God created. Without the universe there are no physical laws.
      If an eternal god created the universe then the physical laws by which said universe functions existed eternally in the mind of that eternal creator as well, which again renders an eternal creator unecessary. If the laws are eternal then attributing them to a mind that utilizes them to create is unecessary. The fact that the laws are eternal leaves no need for a creator.

      If there is no Cosmos, if there is nothing rather than something, then you are correct, there would be no physical laws, but it is your assumption that there was nothing and that god created the universe out of nothing, puff, but again, that's a belief for which there is no evidence. Ex nihilo nihil fit! So, again, you are welcome to believe that the universe, like magic, came from out of nothing, but there is no evidence to support that belief, the only evidence is to the contrary.
      Last edited by JimL; 09-09-2019, 10:26 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        You believe it all just magically happened, right? Out of nothing? From no space, no time, no matter, no energy, nothing suddenly became everything for no reason?
        Not “magically”. There are several workable scientific hypotheses as to how it all came about, including that of an infinite multiverse that had no beginning…you know like God, but with evidence.

        And you mock us for believing in God?
        Yes. Because just believing that ‘god did it’ is merely an Argument from Ignorance, i.e. we don’t know how it happened “therefore god”.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          I already answered the questions in detail.
          No you didn't. Nature with out Divine direction could not have done it - correct?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            No you didn't. Nature with out Divine direction could not have done it - correct?
            I already answered the questions in detail, and spent a number of posts correcting your misinformation concerning the difference between Intelligent Design and Theistic Evolution.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-10-2019, 08:03 AM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              I already answered the questions in detail, and spent a number of posts correcting your misinformation concerning the difference between Intelligent Design and Theistic Evolution.
              Shuny, you did no such thing. Even your own link on Theistic Evolution stated that there were different views on how much God directly intervened in the process or not. But I'm not concerned about definitions, but what your religion teaches - that God directed the process of evolution - which beg the question - could nature alone caused the evolutionary process as we know it? Of course the answer is no. Nature on her own did not do it - it had to be God directed. Just admit it.
              Last edited by seer; 09-10-2019, 08:32 AM.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                So you believe, though there is no evidence for your belief. The physical laws are eternal no matter how you look at it, whether in the mind of a god, or in the nature of an eternal Cosmos.
                Well we are talking about what we believe, Jim. Nobody is saying you have to agree


                If an eternal god created the universe then the physical laws by which said universe functions existed eternally in the mind of that eternal creator as well, which again renders an eternal creator unecessary. If the laws are eternal then attributing them to a mind that utilizes them to create is unecessary. The fact that the laws are eternal leaves no need for a creator.
                How is that, Jim? If I plan something out, then build it and it works, how does that make me unnecessary? The physical laws just describe how the universe works. God create it and made it work that way according to the rules he designed. He could have made up different rules if he wanted to. How does him making things work the way he wanted mean he is unnecessary?

                An example. He designs the electron to have a negative charge and the proton to have a positive charge. He creates the electromagnetic force that has a positive and negative charge and designs those charges to repel each other. He also creates the strong nuclear force that he uses to keep the protons and neutrons together and hold the electrons in orbit. Therefore the electrons will orbit the nucleus. We see what is happening and we give those forces names and the way they work we call physical laws. But none of them have to be the way they are, God just planned it and created it to work that way.


                If there is no Cosmos, if there is nothing rather than something, then you are correct, there would be no physical laws, but it is your assumption that there was nothing and that god created the universe out of nothing, puff, but again, that's a belief for which there is no evidence. Ex nihilo nihil fit! So, again, you are welcome to believe that the universe, like magic, came from out of nothing, but there is no evidence to support that belief, the only evidence is to the contrary.
                You also believe there was nothing and it all came into being ex nihilo. You just don't believe in the same cause as we do.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  Not “magically”. There are several workable scientific hypotheses as to how it all came about, including that of an infinite multiverse that had no beginning…you know like God, but with evidence.
                  it all comes down to wishful thinking and magic.


                  Yes. Because just believing that ‘god did it’ is merely an Argument from Ignorance, i.e. we don’t know how it happened “therefore god”.
                  Kinda like "we don't know how it happened, therefore imaginary multiverse?"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Well we are talking about what we believe, Jim. Nobody is saying you have to agree.
                    True, and we obviously do not agree. The difference is that there is no evidence for what you believe. There is no evidence of immateriality, no evidence of an invisible diety who speaks the material world into existence. And again, I am sure that if such an omnipotent being did exist he/she/it would have no problem making its existence perfectly clear to us all


                    How is that, Jim? If I plan something out, then build it and it works, how does that make me unnecessary? The physical laws just describe how the universe works. God create it and made it work that way according to the rules he designed. He could have made up different rules if he wanted to. How does him making things work the way he wanted mean he is unnecessary?
                    Because, when you plan the thing out, you plan it out in accordance to the already existent rules, and being that god is defined as both eternal and omniscient then the physical laws that he would utilize for creating the universe would need already exist. Unless you want to argue that the eternal and omniscient god learned something new.
                    An example. He designs the electron to have a negative charge and the proton to have a positive charge. He creates the electromagnetic force that has a positive and negative charge and designs those charges to repel each other. He also creates the strong nuclear force that he uses to keep the protons and neutrons together and hold the electrons in orbit. Therefore the electrons will orbit the nucleus. We see what is happening and we give those forces names and the way they work we call physical laws. But none of them have to be the way they are, God just planned it and created it to work that way.
                    See above. An eternal and omniscient being could only design things the way he did because he already eternally and omnisciently knew the physical laws and how they worked. But the fact that they already exist and function the way they do renders a creator unecessary.


                    You also believe there was nothing and it all came into being ex nihilo. You just don't believe in the same cause as we do.
                    No, I don't believe there is any such thing as nothing, the concept of absolute nothing itself makes no sense to me. Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit! I believe there is a Greater eternal and infinite Cosmos of some sort, don't pretend to understand it exactly, out of which universes like our own are born. I think that the idea of a disembodied eternal mind thinking the material world into existence is not only an argument from ignorance, but like all the ancient myths, it's a bit irrational to accept as a reality.
                    Last edited by JimL; 09-10-2019, 09:47 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      Because, when you plan the thing out, you plan it out in accordance to the already existent rules, and being that god is defined as both eternal and omniscient then the physical laws that he would utilize for creating the universe would need already exist. Unless you want to argue that the eternal and omniscient god learned something new.

                      See above. An eternal and omniscient being could only design things the way he did because he already eternally and omnisciently knew the physical laws and how they worked. But the fact that they exist and function the way they do renders a creator unecessary.

                      Yes He knew HIS ideas/laws would work. And without Him, who/what would actually bring them into existence?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Yes He knew HIS ideas/laws would work. And without Him, who/what would actually bring them into existence?
                        You're missing the point, if he already knew them the physical laws, then he didn't bring them into existence, they're eternal. And that's the point. The physical laws must needs be eternal!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          True, and we obviously do not agree. The difference is that there is no evidence for what you believe. There is no evidence of immateriality, no evidence of an invisible diety who speaks the material world into existence. And again, I am sure that if such an omnipotent being did exist he/she/it would have no problem making its existence perfectly clear to us all
                          There is no evidence for your belief about what happened before the big bang either. There can't be, because it wasn't in our universe and there was no time, or space, or energy. So we each have our faith.


                          Because, when you plan the thing out, you plan it out in accordance to the already existent rules, and being that god is defined as both eternal and omniscient then the physical laws that he would utilize for creating the universe would need already exist. Unless you want to argue that the eternal and omniscient god learned something new.

                          See above. An eternal and omniscient being could only design things the way he did because he already eternally and omnisciently knew the physical laws and how they worked. But the fact that they already exist and function the way they do renders a creator unecessary.
                          That makes no sense. If I design a game, I make the rules. If the game works according to those rules, it is because I made them. Your argument is senseless. The physical laws did not have to work the way they do. And they didn't exist before God created the universe.

                          God could have created the universe with entirely different physical properties and rules.


                          No, I don't believe there is any such thing as nothing, the concept of absolute nothing itself makes no sense to me. Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit! I believe there is a Greater eternal and infinite Cosmos of some sort, don't pretend to understand it exactly, out of which universes like our own are born. I think that the idea of a disembodied eternal mind thinking the material world into existence is not only an argument from ignorance, but like all the ancient myths, it's a bit irrational to accept as a reality.
                          Notice the bolded red words I highlighted for you...


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            You're missing the point, if he already knew them the physical laws, then he didn't bring them into existence, they're eternal. And that's the point. The physical laws must needs be eternal!
                            That's idiotic. So if God thought, "I will create a universe and a force I will call gravity that makes matter attract to other matter" you claim that the law of gravity existed before he created the universe? He could have just as easily created everything out of velcro with no gravity if he wished.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              You're missing the point, if he already knew them the physical laws, then he didn't bring them into existence, they're eternal. And that's the point. The physical laws must needs be eternal!
                              No, their eternal state is only eternal because they are in the mind of God, He creates what will work. The law of gravity is only eternal because it is God's idea and His mind is eternal. No mind, no law of gravity comes into being. Conceptually or actually.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by siam View Post
                                Perhaps it is a matter of seeing the glass as half full or half empty? Christianity is probably the only religion with the premise of original sin?---Judaism for example, does not have this concept. That is why one is presumed innocent until proven guilty---a concept from Jewish law----which presumes human nature as inherently decent....?....

                                If one presumes human nature as inherently evil---then our observations of the world and humanity will align with that presumption---but if we presume human nature to be primarily decent/good, then our observations of the world and human beings align with that presumption.
                                We are born innocent, but sooner or later we will sin. We don't sin because Adam sinned, we sin AS Adam sinned.

                                Jews trace sin to the fall of Adam and Eve.

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