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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Original sin

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  • #31
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    "Able to fall" is not the same is "unavoidably destined to fall."
    I agree...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      What? If God created us fallible as opposed to free (to make our own choices) then God is responsible for our evil.
      God Created humans fallible and with a will, not necessarily totally free to do whatever they want. God is responsible for the nature of humanity as it is. I would consider evil as the lack of good, and bad human choices, which God Created humans with a will able to make good and bad choices.

      This would be true of Adam and Eve as with all humans before and after. Biblically there were other humans alive at the time of Adam and Eve.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        ...Biblically there were other humans alive at the time of Adam and Eve.
        Curious about the use of "Biblically" here. How so?
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          God Created humans fallible and with a will, not necessarily totally free to do whatever they want. God is responsible for the nature of humanity as it is. I would consider evil as the lack of good, and bad human choices, which God Created humans with a will able to make good and bad choices.

          This would be true of Adam and Eve as with all humans before and after. Biblically there were other humans alive at the time of Adam and Eve.
          That is funny Shuny, but your own religion teaches that Adam is the father of all mankind. Is your religion wrong? And if you say that God created man to make choices (good or bad) then what are you saying that is really any different than me?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Curious about the use of "Biblically" here. How so?
            Caan married in the Land of Nod. I know literal Creationists try and wiggle out of it and say Caan married insestuaiously with his sister, but out side the literalists trying to justify their view it just not fit reality.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Caan married in the Land of Nod. I know literal Creationists try and wiggle out of it and say Caan married insestuaiously with his sister, but out side the literalists trying to justify their view it just not fit reality.
              Ah, ok, forgot about that one! But you obviously meant Cain.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                That is funny Shuny, but your own religion teaches that Adam is the father of all mankind. Is your religion wrong? And if you say that God created man to make choices (good or bad) then what are you saying that is really any different than me?
                Actually no, the Baha'i Faith does not consider Adam the father of humanity. It considers Adam the first Manifestation of God for the Adamic cycle. There are more cycles of Revelation and evolving human existence prior to Adam. The Adamic cycle ended in 1844.

                This reflects the objective verifiable evidence of the known history of humanity.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Actually no, the Baha'i Faith does not consider Adam the father of humanity. It considers Adam the first Manifestation of God for the Adamic cycle. There are more cycles of Revelation and evolving human existence prior to Adam. The Adamic cycle ended in 1844.
                  I should have been more clear, Adam is the father of all humanity alive today.

                  This reflects the objective verifiable evidence of the known history of humanity.
                  Where is the objective verifiable evidence that only Adam's offspring exist today?
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    God being the 'One Who is truly good' does equate to the belief that humans are 'stained by evil' with original sin due to the the very fallible human acts by Adam and Eve cursing all of humanity to commit evil acts.
                    Irrational.

                    Question: Before they committed the 'deadly sin' Were Adam and Eve good, how good?
                    Evidently, not good enough - but it's the wrong question. Humans have that annoying free will - and while made in God's image, aren't made to be by nature good. If they were, they wouldn't have that annoying free will.

                    I believe that the concept of the 'Fall' and Original Sin' were the result of the need for humans to explain a violent imperfect world that should have been 'perfect' without sin Created by God. The blame was placed on a mythical belief in Adam and Eve as the 'scapegoats' evolved from ancient Sumerian mythology found in cuneiform tablets.
                    Irrelevant - and irrational. Assumes facts not in evidence - and not even 'facts'.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      What? Of course I blame Adam for his sin. It was his choice.
                      And hiding behind the bushes didn't help.




                      So God created us to do evil? If he created us fallible he created us to fall into sin.
                      No, He gave us the ability to choose - He didn't make us omniscient (good thing, we muck up what little we DO understand). Choice is a double edged sword - so in granting that ability, He grants both the ability to chose wisely and the ability to chose poorly. Otherwise, if we can only make perfect choices, we only choose as He does - but we're just puppets mimicking the Master. Real choice is messy - so too is real freedom - but without it, we cannot freely chose love.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Quill Sword

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        perhaps because a Muslim---unlike the Christian---has no vested interest in Judaism. For the Christians, they have appropriated the old Testatment/Torah for their own theological purposes and have interpreted the stories according to their theological convenience....?.....for example---In Judaism, God forgives Adam so there is no "original sin"......Yet Christianity interprets this story differently from Judaism......

                        I also search the net and listen to Jews about Judaism. (see links provided previously if u r also interested.)
                        Which would be false - islam derives from both Judaism and Christianity.

                        But more to the point, you just told me that the muslim is biased and therefore unreliable on this point.

                        And you seem to keep repeating the same error which brings your reliability even more into question.
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Quill Sword

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          The question was---where does compassion and mercy fit into a worldview which presumes human beings are evil and their actions are deliberately malicious....Are you saying that only God is capable of compassion and mercy?
                          You asked where it came from - there's only the one possible source - God. Any human capability is just a reflection of His.
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Yes we see this with kids, selfishness. But why with adults? I'm not speaking of unthinking lust or selfishness for instance, but when you have decided for yourself that something is morally wrong, then do it anyway. What is overriding that good sense, or to put it another way - why do we give in? Something in us is superseding or ignoring our rational mind.
                            Because adults are immature AKA not (yet) perfected ?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by siam View Post
                              The question was---where does compassion and mercy fit into a worldview which presumes human beings are evil and their actions are deliberately malicious....Are you saying that only God is capable of compassion and mercy?
                              In origin, yes. The capacity in creatures to be able to exercise compassion and mercy, has its source in God alone. So in an important sense, only God can be truly called Compassionate & Merciful; just as only God can truly be called Good. Wherever creatures show any good qualities, that is the grace of God working in them. Not because they are evil, but because they are contingent and finite beings wholly destitute of good except as a gift of God’s grace. The sovereign grace of God is why anything not-God (IOW, any creature) has any existence or being at all. Compassion and mercy in creatures is real and authentic and valuable insofar as it comes from & conforms to God’s Compassion and Mercy - which are most conspicuously displayed in and by and through Christ.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                I should have been more clear, Adam is the father of all humanity alive today.
                                No that is not what the Baha'i Faith believes. Humanity has been around for hundreds of thousands of years or more. The Baha'i Faith does believe that all the Manifestations of God for the Adamic Age are descendants from Adam, and all humanity today shares ancestry of Adam. In the Baha'i Faith Adam is far more ancient than ~6000 years ago.
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-03-2019, 08:26 PM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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