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Thread: Original sin

  1. #201
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Why must they be eternal, in nature? And again Jim, if God is the creator of said laws they depend on Him not the other way around.
    Well, did god think the laws up? In order to think them up, create them, they would have to work, and if they work then they existed as laws before he thought them up. That means that in either sense, whether in the mind of god or not, the laws themselves are eternal which basically renders god unecessary.

  2. #202
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Well, did god think the laws up? In order to think them up, create them, they would have to work, and if they work then they existed as laws before he thought them up. That means that in either sense, whether in the mind of god or not, the laws themselves are eternal which basically renders god unecessary.
    OR..... God is omnipotent and not limited by anything outside His own power! He's certainly smarter than the average internet poster!
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  3. #203
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Except Jim you are the one borrowing the classic attributes of our God to make the case for your Cosmos - not the other way around.
    No seer, that space-time, i.e. universes begin, is a matter of science.

  4. #204
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    No seer, that space-time, i.e. universes begin, is a matter of science.
    No Jim, you said your 'cosmos' that produced this universe was outside of time space, eternal, and would be supremely powerful (creating multiple universes). All classic attributes of the Christian God...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  5. #205
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No Jim, you said your 'cosmos' that produced this universe was outside of time space, eternal, and would be supremely powerful (creating multiple universes). All classic attributes of the Christian God...
    Yes, that's right space-times, i.e. space and time begin to exist like our particular universe began to exist, but they don't , in my opinion, come from nothing as is your belief, they are a product of the infinite and eternal quantum vacuum of non zero energy and natural law. That has nothing to do with a god that simply says "let it be."

  6. #206
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Well, did god think the laws up? In order to think them up, create them, they would have to work, and if they work then they existed as laws before he thought them up. That means that in either sense, whether in the mind of god or not, the laws themselves are eternal which basically renders god unecessary.
    God created the universe Jim. He made all of the wee little quantum thingamabobs, the various forces and how the particles interact, and everything. Thus as he made everything, and how they work, the physical laws that describe how they work came into being. The laws are not things in of themselves, they just describe how the universe works. Which God created. Without the universe there are no physical laws.

  7. #207
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Yes, that's right space-times, i.e. space and time begin to exist like our particular universe began to exist, but they don't , in my opinion, come from nothing as is your belief, they are a product of the infinite and eternal quantum vacuum of non zero energy and natural law. That has nothing to do with a god that simply says "let it be."
    You believe it all just magically happened, right? Out of nothing? From no space, no time, no matter, no energy, nothing suddenly became everything for no reason?

    And you mock us for believing in God?


  8. Amen Bill the Cat, Cow Poke, KingsGambit amen'd this post.
  9. #208
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Yes, that's right space-times, i.e. space and time begin to exist like our particular universe began to exist, but they don't , in my opinion, come from nothing as is your belief, they are a product of the infinite and eternal quantum vacuum of non zero energy and natural law. That has nothing to do with a god that simply says "let it be."
    Where does this eternal quantum vacuum exist if not in space, where is this magical place? Quantum vacuums in our world exist IN space? How do they exist with no space?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  10. #209
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Then Shuny, if God directs the evolutionary process then it could not have happened on its own. Nature with out that Divine direction could not have done it. You agree?
    You are contrasting Theism from Philosophical Materialism. Beyond this you have not stated anything meaningful.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  11. #210
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    You are contrasting Theism from Philosophical Materialism. Beyond this you have not stated anything meaningful.
    Why won't you answer? Nature with out Divine direction could not have done it - correct?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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