Originally posted by seer
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostGod created the universe Jim.
He made all of the wee little quantum thingamabobs, the various forces and how the particles interact, and everything. Thus as he made everything, and how they work, the physical laws that describe how they work came into being. The laws are not things in of themselves, they just describe how the universe works. Which God created. Without the universe there are no physical laws.
If there is no Cosmos, if there is nothing rather than something, then you are correct, there would be no physical laws, but it is your assumption that there was nothing and that god created the universe out of nothing, puff, but again, that's a belief for which there is no evidence. Ex nihilo nihil fit! So, again, you are welcome to believe that the universe, like magic, came from out of nothing, but there is no evidence to support that belief, the only evidence is to the contrary.Last edited by JimL; 09-09-2019, 10:26 PM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI already answered the questions in detail.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo you didn't. Nature with out Divine direction could not have done it - correct?Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-10-2019, 08:03 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI already answered the questions in detail, and spent a number of posts correcting your misinformation concerning the difference between Intelligent Design and Theistic Evolution.Last edited by seer; 09-10-2019, 08:32 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSo you believe, though there is no evidence for your belief. The physical laws are eternal no matter how you look at it, whether in the mind of a god, or in the nature of an eternal Cosmos.
If an eternal god created the universe then the physical laws by which said universe functions existed eternally in the mind of that eternal creator as well, which again renders an eternal creator unecessary. If the laws are eternal then attributing them to a mind that utilizes them to create is unecessary. The fact that the laws are eternal leaves no need for a creator.
An example. He designs the electron to have a negative charge and the proton to have a positive charge. He creates the electromagnetic force that has a positive and negative charge and designs those charges to repel each other. He also creates the strong nuclear force that he uses to keep the protons and neutrons together and hold the electrons in orbit. Therefore the electrons will orbit the nucleus. We see what is happening and we give those forces names and the way they work we call physical laws. But none of them have to be the way they are, God just planned it and created it to work that way.
If there is no Cosmos, if there is nothing rather than something, then you are correct, there would be no physical laws, but it is your assumption that there was nothing and that god created the universe out of nothing, puff, but again, that's a belief for which there is no evidence. Ex nihilo nihil fit! So, again, you are welcome to believe that the universe, like magic, came from out of nothing, but there is no evidence to support that belief, the only evidence is to the contrary.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWell we are talking about what we believe, Jim. Nobody is saying you have to agree.
How is that, Jim? If I plan something out, then build it and it works, how does that make me unnecessary? The physical laws just describe how the universe works. God create it and made it work that way according to the rules he designed. He could have made up different rules if he wanted to. How does him making things work the way he wanted mean he is unnecessary?
An example. He designs the electron to have a negative charge and the proton to have a positive charge. He creates the electromagnetic force that has a positive and negative charge and designs those charges to repel each other. He also creates the strong nuclear force that he uses to keep the protons and neutrons together and hold the electrons in orbit. Therefore the electrons will orbit the nucleus. We see what is happening and we give those forces names and the way they work we call physical laws. But none of them have to be the way they are, God just planned it and created it to work that way.
You also believe there was nothing and it all came into being ex nihilo. You just don't believe in the same cause as we do.Last edited by JimL; 09-10-2019, 09:47 AM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostBecause, when you plan the thing out, you plan it out in accordance to the already existent rules, and being that god is defined as both eternal and omniscient then the physical laws that he would utilize for creating the universe would need already exist. Unless you want to argue that the eternal and omniscient god learned something new.
See above. An eternal and omniscient being could only design things the way he did because he already eternally and omnisciently knew the physical laws and how they worked. But the fact that they exist and function the way they do renders a creator unecessary.
Yes He knew HIS ideas/laws would work. And without Him, who/what would actually bring them into existence?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYes He knew HIS ideas/laws would work. And without Him, who/what would actually bring them into existence?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostTrue, and we obviously do not agree. The difference is that there is no evidence for what you believe. There is no evidence of immateriality, no evidence of an invisible diety who speaks the material world into existence. And again, I am sure that if such an omnipotent being did exist he/she/it would have no problem making its existence perfectly clear to us all
Because, when you plan the thing out, you plan it out in accordance to the already existent rules, and being that god is defined as both eternal and omniscient then the physical laws that he would utilize for creating the universe would need already exist. Unless you want to argue that the eternal and omniscient god learned something new.
See above. An eternal and omniscient being could only design things the way he did because he already eternally and omnisciently knew the physical laws and how they worked. But the fact that they already exist and function the way they do renders a creator unecessary.
God could have created the universe with entirely different physical properties and rules.
No, I don't believe there is any such thing as nothing, the concept of absolute nothing itself makes no sense to me. Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit! I believe there is a Greater eternal and infinite Cosmos of some sort, don't pretend to understand it exactly, out of which universes like our own are born. I think that the idea of a disembodied eternal mind thinking the material world into existence is not only an argument from ignorance, but like all the ancient myths, it's a bit irrational to accept as a reality.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYou're missing the point, if he already knew them the physical laws, then he didn't bring them into existence, they're eternal. And that's the point. The physical laws must needs be eternal!
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYou're missing the point, if he already knew them the physical laws, then he didn't bring them into existence, they're eternal. And that's the point. The physical laws must needs be eternal!Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by siam View PostPerhaps it is a matter of seeing the glass as half full or half empty? Christianity is probably the only religion with the premise of original sin?---Judaism for example, does not have this concept. That is why one is presumed innocent until proven guilty---a concept from Jewish law----which presumes human nature as inherently decent....?....
If one presumes human nature as inherently evil---then our observations of the world and humanity will align with that presumption---but if we presume human nature to be primarily decent/good, then our observations of the world and human beings align with that presumption.
Jews trace sin to the fall of Adam and Eve.
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