Original sin

[shunyadragon]

I should have been more clear, Adam is the father of all humanity alive today.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith_and_science

"must be thought of simply as a symbol"

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[Tassman]

The question was---where does compassion and mercy fit into a worldview which presumes human beings are evil and their actions are deliberately malicious....Are you saying that only God is capable of compassion and mercy?

Where does as Calvin would have it.

But this is not true. Good behavior is innate. It is a product of the evolution of the necessary social behavior of humanity to survive as a cooperative intelligent social species. Studies of children prior to their acquiring speech, ages 2 to 3, have consistently shown children display a sense of right and wrong independently before such can be taught.

[siam]

In origin, yes. The capacity in creatures to be able to exercise compassion and mercy, has its source in God alone. So in an important sense, only God can be truly called Compassionate & Merciful; just as only God can truly be called Good. Wherever creatures show any good qualities, that is the grace of God working in them. Not because they are evil, but because they are contingent and finite beings wholly destitute of good except as a gift of God’s grace. The sovereign grace of God is why anything not-God (IOW, any creature) has any existence or being at all. Compassion and mercy in creatures is real and authentic and valuable insofar as it comes from & conforms to God’s Compassion and Mercy - which are most conspicuously displayed in and by and through Christ.

Actually, I was not talking about the source---I asked where compassion and mercy FIT in a world-view in which all humanity was inherently evil and its actions deliberately malicious.
So...you are saying that Humanity is evil but if their actions or intentions show compassion and mercy it is because God/Christ is "working" through them? ----correct? Does this imply that the world is divided into 2 groups with "Christians" able to show compassion,mercy, goodness (and can be innocent) but the rest of humanity as inherently evil (and therefore always guilty)?

In any worldview in which one group of people are superior/privileged to another group of people---Justice with compassion and mercy cannot exist....only punitive "Justice" that punishes harshly those who are not "in".
That is why, apart from the "innocent until proven guilty" principle, there is another vital principle in Jewish law which is "All humanity is of equal value.

[Adrift]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith_and_science

"must be thought of simply as a symbol"

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You're quote-mining (as usual). This is what he said, "Therefore, this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradisewe are all descendants of Adam."

[seer]

No that is not what the Baha'i Faith believes. Humanity has been around for hundreds of thousands of years or more. The Baha'i Faith does believe that all the Manifestations of God for the Adamic Age are descendants from Adam, and all descendants from Adam. In the Baha'i Faith Adam is far more ancient than ~6000 years ago.

No Shuny, all humanity alive today are descendants from one man Adam. And you cut off my other question: where is your objective verifiable evidence that all men alive to day are descendants of one man.

Baha'u'llah especially emphasized international peace. He declared that all mankind is the one progeny of Adam and members of one great universal family. If the various races and distinct types of mankind had each proceeded from a different original paternity--in other words, if we had two or more Adams for our human fathers--there might be reasonable ground for difference and divergence in humanity today; but inasmuch as we belong to one progeny and one family, all names which seek to differentiate and distinguish mankind as Italian, German, French, Russian and so on are without significance and sanction. We are all human, all servants of God and all come from Adam's family. Why, then, all these fallacious national and racial distinctions? These boundary lines and artificial barriers have been created by despots and conquerors who sought to attain dominion over mankind, thereby engendering patriotic feeling and rousing selfish devotion to merely local standards of government. As a rule they themselves ...


Man is intelligent and thoughtful, endowed with powers of mind. Why, then, should he be influenced by distinction of color or race, since all belong to one human family? There is no sheep which shuns another as if saying, "I am white, and you are black." They graze together in complete unity, live together in fellowship and happiness. How then can man be limited and influenced by racial colors? The important thing is to realize that all are human, all are one progeny of Adam. Inasmuch as they are all one family, why should they be separated? ...


Racial and national prejudices which separate mankind into groups and branches, likewise, have a false and unjustifiable foundation, for all men are the children of Adam and essentially of one family. There should be no racial alienation or national division among humankind. Such distinctions as French, German, Persian, Anglo-Saxon are human and artificial; they have neither significance nor recognition in the estimation of God. In His estimate all are one, the children of one family...

All humanity are the children of God; they belong to the same family, to the same original race. There can be no multiplicity of races, since all are the descendants of Adam.

http://reference.bahai.org/search?ma...e%5B%5D=en-PUP

[shunyadragon]

No Shuny, all humanity alive today are descendants from one man Adam. And you cut off my other question: where is your objective verifiable evidence that all men alive to day are descendants of one man.

This does not say that as I stated before that there were humans already around before Adam and yes the descendants of Adam spread out and they also are our ancestors as well as the ancestors of Adam. Humans after Adam are descendant from both. In the Baha'i Faith Adam is far more ancient than in the Biblical tradition.

[seer]

This does not say that as I stated before that there were humans already around before Adam and yes the descendants of Adam spread out and they also are our ancestors as well as the ancestors of Adam. Humans after Adam are descendant from both. In the Baha'i Faith Adam is far more ancient than in the Biblical tradition.

Nonsense Shuny according to your religion all humanity are descendants of Adam. Go back and read the quotes.

for all men are the children of Adam and essentially of one family Not some men Shuny, all men...

And when exactly did Adam live? How many years ago?

[shunyadragon]

Nonsense Shuny according to your religion all humanity are descendants of Adam. Go back and read the quotes.

for all men are the children of Adam and essentially of one family Not some men Shuny, all men...

And when exactly did Adam live? How many years ago?

As I said yes all humanity is related to Adam, humanity physically evolved and existed before Adam. As per the following citations th physical origins of humanity are older than Adam. Adam represents the spiritual father of humanity as the first Manifestation of God of the Adamic cycle.

[seer]

As I said yes all humanity is related to Adam, humanity physically evolved and existed before Adam. As per the following citations th physical origins of humanity are older than Adam. Adam represents the spiritual father of humanity as the first Manifestation of God of the Adamic cycle.

Shuny stop being deceitful, I did not say that humans (in some form) did not exist before Adam, but that all humans alive today are descendants of ONE MAN ADAM.

Again: The important thing is to realize that all are human, all are one progeny of Adam. Inasmuch as they are all one family, why should they be separated

There is no living man on earth whose blood line (progeny) does no go back to Adam.

[shunyadragon]

Shuny stop being deceitful, I did not say that humans (in some form) did not exist before Adam, but that all humans alive today are descendants of ONE MAN ADAM.

Again: The important thing is to realize that all are human, all are one progeny of Adam. Inasmuch as they are all one family, why should they be separated

There is no living man on earth whose blood line (progeny) does no go back to Adam.

They are separate realities in the Baha'i writings, and I provided references describing this.

You persist in being an absolute litralist, not only with the Bible, but the Baha'i Faith and other religions when it suits you to justify your agenda. I cited Baha'i writings that openly contradict your biased assertions, but you choose to ignore them. Based on the citations. The Baha'i writings describe both a cyclic spiritual evolution in Revelation, but also an evolving physical evolution, in particular specifically of the evolution of humanity from the animal kingdom.

the Baha'i writings do not date the physical prehistory of the evolution of humanity, but based on the citations I provided that describe human evolution in the animal kingdom it relies on science for th knowledge of the physical history and time frame of our existence and the evolution of life and humanity, because of the belief in the Harmony of Science and Religion.

The Harmony and the separation of the science of physical "earthly existence" and spiritual grounded in evolving Revelation are described in the following:

Source: https://www.bahai.org/beliefs/god-his-creation/ever-advancing-civilization/science-religion

religion, without science, soon degenerates into superstition and fanaticism, while science without religion becomes merely the instrument of crude materialism.

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[JimL]

Just off the top of my head...

Isn't it generally --- and I hate to use such a basic... um.... "i" is in the middle of the word "sin". Isn't it generally when *I* want to get my own way, as opposed to yielding to my brother or my Master?

You can see this with toddlers --- with plenty of toys around, nobody seems interested in the red ball in the corner until one kid picks it up, then everybody wants it. "ME!!!!" "MINE!!!!!"

Part of self-preservation run amuck, maybe. So, maybe it comes down to greed - we want what's best for us. Or, even worse, what we THINK is best for us.

So you'd agree then that morality is that which is in the best interest of society, or humanity in general, and not necessarily in the immediate best interests of the individual.

[JimL]

Well, it's certainly not new, as Paul lamented...

Scripture Verse: Romans 7:15-20 King James Version (KJV)

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

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It would seem that Paul was full of malarkey. There is no such thing as "the sin" which lives in you. When you do that which you know to be wrong, it is you who do it.

[JimL]

You are channeling CS Lewis. But this is sin, and as Christians we see this working in us. I wonder what the unbeliever says - why do they do that which they know and agree is wrong?

Simple seer, because to do that which we believe to be wrong is at the same time seen to be advantageous to ourselves, so long as we are not found out. Why do you think that you do what you believe to be wrong?

[JimL]

The Christian is merely more aware of the problem - one of the effects of the Law is that it holds a mirror to us so we see more clearly our shortfall. But not believing doesn't insulate one from evil - and non-believers also struggle with moral, ethical and legal issues born of their desire to do right (man being made in the Image of God) - and their fallen natures that tell them 'hey, no one is looking...'

Their philosophic explanation for the reality varies from person to person - most seem to chalk it up to 'humans make mistakes; I am human.'. Sad part being that they deceive themselves even further by chalking up willful acts to 'mistakes' when they knew better beforehand.

Nobody fell. Human beings were never of a perfect moral nature who then became immoral. That idea is a contradiction unto itself.

[JimL]

God. The only One Who is truly good.

And how are you defining good? I think you're about to present a circular argument.