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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    God. The only One Who is truly good.
    God being the 'One Who is truly good' does equate to the belief that humans are 'stained by evil' with original sin due to the the very fallible human acts by Adam and Eve cursing all of humanity to commit evil acts.

    Question: Before they committed the 'deadly sin' Were Adam and Eve good, how good?

    I believe that the concept of the 'Fall' and Original Sin' were the result of the need for humans to explain a violent imperfect world that should have been 'perfect' without sin Created by God. The blame was placed on a mythical belief in Adam and Eve as the 'scapegoats' evolved from ancient Sumerian mythology found in cuneiform tablets.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      I believe that the concept of the 'Fall' and Original Sin' were the result of the need for humans to explain a violent imperfect world that should have been 'perfect' without sin Created by God. The blame was placed on a mythical belief in Adam and Eve as the 'scapegoats' evolved from ancient Sumerian mythology found in cuneiform tablets.
      Well if human beings are not responsible for our sin and evil who is. And can you link this Sumerian thing you are taking about?
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Well if human beings are not responsible for our sin and evil who is.
        Simply the nature of our physical existence, and the nature of our human nature as it is was Created by God as is. It is bizzare to believe God Created a flawed Creation that needed to corrected, because of the actions and failure of fallible humans.

        And can you link this Sumerian thing you are taking about?
        The Sumerian Creation myth including the world flood was recorded in cuneiform tablets as:

        Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_creation_myth


        The earliest record of a Sumerian creation myth, called The Eridu Genesis by historian Thorkild Jacobsen,[1] is found on a single fragmentary tablet excavated in Nippur. It is written in the Sumerian language and dated to around 1600 BC.[1] Other Sumerian creation myths from around this date are called the Barton Cylinder, the Debate between sheep and grain and the Debate between Winter and Summer, also found at Nippur

        © Copyright Original Source



        These Creation myths evolved through Babylonian, and Canaanite/ Ugarite myths:

        Source: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-where-did-creation-story-come-from-1.5404560


        Genesis of Genesis: Where Did the Biblical Story of Creation Come From?

        The Bible actually has more than one creation myth, and the one you're thinking of seems to have arisen not from ancient Israelite lore but from the central Asian steppes.

        The Hebrew Bible opens with an account of creation, starting with what is arguably the most memorable line in the entire tome: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

        But this iconic account of God creating the world is not the only account of creation in the Bible. If anything, it seems to be the most recent in a succession of creation myths held sacred by the ancient Hebrews over the eons.


        Baal and the sea monsters

        The oldest creation myth in the Bible isn't in the Book of Genesis at all. It is alluded to in the Book of Isaiah, in the Book of Job and in Psalms.

        The clearest and fullest biblical account of this ancient myth appears in Psalm 74: “For God... Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters. Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness. Thou didst cleave the fountain and the flood: thou driedst up mighty rivers. The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun. Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter” (74:12-17).


        An archaeological discovery made in the 20th century shed light on this strange account of creation, revealing it for what it is: an abridged version of the Canaanite creation myth.

        Among the ruins of the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit, tablets were found in a language very similar to Hebrew, recording the many myths believed by the city’s inhabitants - including that creation began with the storm god Baal vanquishing the god of the sea Yam and his sea monster-serpent-dragon helpers.

        There are striking parallels between the Ugarit text and certain biblical verses. In the Book of Isaiah, for instance, the prophet says: “In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea” (Isaiah 27:1). That is nearly verbatim to what an anonymous Canaanite bard has to say about Baal: “When you killed Litan, the fleeing serpent, annihilated the twisty serpent, the potentate with seven heads."

        Generations of heaven and earth

        Another completely different account of creation found in the Bible in Genesis 2, starting with the line: “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens” (Genesis 2:4).

        According to this account, God created man from clay, placed him in the Garden of Eden, and only then created animals, plants and a spouse for his benefit.

        The writer of this simple prose has quite an anthropomorphic conception of God, most clearly seen when the author has him taking an afternoon stroll in the Garden of Eden, where he bumps into Adam and converses with him: “And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself” (Genesis 3:8-10).

        This creation myth evidently has a different source than the Canaanite version. Some elements of the story are familiar from ancient Mesopotamia myths, but they play out in a different way. For example, in the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh, man is cheated of immortality by a snake who eats a plant. If Gilgamesh had eaten it, would have made him immortal.

        Our biblical account famously has the serpent beguile Eve into eating the fruit of a tree; she persuades Adam to do likewise. They gain knowledge but get expelled from the Garden of Eden.

        © Copyright Original Source

        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by siam View Post
          Perhaps it is a matter of seeing the glass as half full or half empty? Christianity is probably the only religion with the premise of original sin?---Judaism for example, does not have this concept. That is why one is presumed innocent until proven guilty---a concept from Jewish law----which presumes human nature as inherently decent....?....

          If one presumes human nature as inherently evil---then our observations of the world and humanity will align with that presumption---but if we presume human nature to be primarily decent/good, then our observations of the world and human beings align with that presumption.
          We do not believe men are completely evil, but we have an inherent bent towards wrongdoing. Have you ever raised kids? You don't have to teach a 3 year old to lie or a 4 year old to thump his little sister. You have to train them, really train them, to be good.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Simply the nature of our physical existence, and the nature of our human nature as it is was Created by God as is. It is bizzare to believe God Created a flawed Creation that needed to corrected, because of the actions and failure of fallible humans.
            I have no idea what you mean, did God create us flawed or not? If not why do we do evil?



            The Sumerian Creation myth including the world flood was recorded in cuneiform tablets as:

            Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_creation_myth


            The earliest record of a Sumerian creation myth, called The Eridu Genesis by historian Thorkild Jacobsen,[1] is found on a single fragmentary tablet excavated in Nippur. It is written in the Sumerian language and dated to around 1600 BC.[1] Other Sumerian creation myths from around this date are called the Barton Cylinder, the Debate between sheep and grain and the Debate between Winter and Summer, also found at Nippur

            © Copyright Original Source



            These Creation myths evolved through Babylonian, and Canaanite/ Ugarite myths:

            Source: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-where-did-creation-story-come-from-1.5404560


            Genesis of Genesis: Where Did the Biblical Story of Creation Come From?

            The Bible actually has more than one creation myth, and the one you're thinking of seems to have arisen not from ancient Israelite lore but from the central Asian steppes.

            The Hebrew Bible opens with an account of creation, starting with what is arguably the most memorable line in the entire tome: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

            But this iconic account of God creating the world is not the only account of creation in the Bible. If anything, it seems to be the most recent in a succession of creation myths held sacred by the ancient Hebrews over the eons.


            Baal and the sea monsters

            The oldest creation myth in the Bible isn't in the Book of Genesis at all. It is alluded to in the Book of Isaiah, in the Book of Job and in Psalms.

            The clearest and fullest biblical account of this ancient myth appears in Psalm 74: “For God... Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters. Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness. Thou didst cleave the fountain and the flood: thou driedst up mighty rivers. The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun. Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter” (74:12-17).


            An archaeological discovery made in the 20th century shed light on this strange account of creation, revealing it for what it is: an abridged version of the Canaanite creation myth.

            Among the ruins of the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit, tablets were found in a language very similar to Hebrew, recording the many myths believed by the city’s inhabitants - including that creation began with the storm god Baal vanquishing the god of the sea Yam and his sea monster-serpent-dragon helpers.

            There are striking parallels between the Ugarit text and certain biblical verses. In the Book of Isaiah, for instance, the prophet says: “In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea” (Isaiah 27:1). That is nearly verbatim to what an anonymous Canaanite bard has to say about Baal: “When you killed Litan, the fleeing serpent, annihilated the twisty serpent, the potentate with seven heads."

            Generations of heaven and earth

            Another completely different account of creation found in the Bible in Genesis 2, starting with the line: “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens” (Genesis 2:4).

            According to this account, God created man from clay, placed him in the Garden of Eden, and only then created animals, plants and a spouse for his benefit.

            The writer of this simple prose has quite an anthropomorphic conception of God, most clearly seen when the author has him taking an afternoon stroll in the Garden of Eden, where he bumps into Adam and converses with him: “And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself” (Genesis 3:8-10).

            This creation myth evidently has a different source than the Canaanite version. Some elements of the story are familiar from ancient Mesopotamia myths, but they play out in a different way. For example, in the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh, man is cheated of immortality by a snake who eats a plant. If Gilgamesh had eaten it, would have made him immortal.

            Our biblical account famously has the serpent beguile Eve into eating the fruit of a tree; she persuades Adam to do likewise. They gain knowledge but get expelled from the Garden of Eden.

            © Copyright Original Source

            We are speaking of Adam and Eve sinning by disobeying God. There is no parallel in the Sumerian creation story.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              I have no idea what you mean, did God create us flawed or not? If not why do we do evil?
              Your not addressing the first part how God Created Adam and Eve, and would they be at fault for their own human weaknesses in the 'Fall' that God Created them fallible and flawed to 'Fall.? Who would be at fault for how Adam and Eve were Created? Not Adam and Eve.

              God did not Create us as flawed, but if you believe in the story of Adam and Eve as described in Genesis this is the case.

              No what we do is not evil. What we do, good and bad, is the product of how God Created us with a will. There was no 'Fall' nor Original Sin.' God Created us as God intended through natural processes.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Your not addressing the first part how God Created Adam and Eve, and would they be at fault for their own human weaknesses in the 'Fall' that God Created them fallible and flawed to 'Fall.? Who would be at fault for how Adam and Eve were Created? Not Adam and Eve.
                No, I don't believe they were created flawed, I believe they were created free.

                God did not Create us as flawed, but if you believe in the story of Adam and Eve as described in Genesis this is the case.

                No what we do is not evil. What we do, good and bad, is the product of how God Created us with a will. There was no 'Fall' nor Original Sin.' God Created us as God intended through natural processes.
                I don't know what that means - so God created us to do evil?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  No, I don't believe they were created flawed, I believe they were created free.
                  Than there was no ]Fall nor Original Sin' that you could blame on Adam and Eve.

                  I don't know what that means - so God created us to do evil?
                  No God Created us as fallible humans with a will capable of doing good and disobeying God and doing things against the will of God, what you call evil. We naturally have a choice between light and dark, and we have always been fallible humans as God Created and intended humanity.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Than there was no ]Fall nor Original Sin' that you could blame on Adam and Eve.
                    What? Of course I blame Adam for his sin. It was his choice.



                    No God Created us as fallible humans with a will capable of doing good and disobeying God and doing things against the will of God, what you call evil. We naturally have a choice between light and dark, and we have always been fallible humans as God Created and intended humanity.
                    So God created us to do evil? If he created us fallible he created us to fall into sin.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      What? Of course I blame Adam for his sin. It was his choice.
                      True like all humans we are responsible for our faults and sins since humans were first humans millions of years ago. Unfortunately the Biblical version is Adam and Eve ar responsible for the sinful nature of humanity.


                      So God created us to do evil? If he created us fallible he created us to fall into sin.
                      No, we did not 'Fall' into sin by the unfortunate transgression of Adam and Eve, but if you believe the literal Genesis version this would be the case. God did not Create us to do evil no more than God Created Adam and Eve to 'Fall' because of the fallible human nature God Created. God Created us as humans and we have the ability to make choice to a degree.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seer View Post


                        So God created us to do evil? If he created us fallible he created us to fall into sin.
                        "Able to fall" is not the same is "unavoidably destined to fall."
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        Nationalist Christian.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                        Justice for Matthew Perna!

                        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          And a muslim would know better how, exactly?
                          perhaps because a Muslim---unlike the Christian---has no vested interest in Judaism. For the Christians, they have appropriated the old Testatment/Torah for their own theological purposes and have interpreted the stories according to their theological convenience....?.....for example---In Judaism, God forgives Adam so there is no "original sin"......Yet Christianity interprets this story differently from Judaism......

                          I also search the net and listen to Jews about Judaism. (see links provided previously if u r also interested.)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                            God. The only One Who is truly good.
                            The question was---where does compassion and mercy fit into a worldview which presumes human beings are evil and their actions are deliberately malicious....Are you saying that only God is capable of compassion and mercy?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                              I believe we apply the presumption of innocence because all people are basically evil, including the accusers, who are capable of being satanic false accusers. Better to presume the accused to be innocent, and in the process let some guilty persons escape, than to presume guilt, and increase the odds of punishing the innocent.
                              Perhaps you are right....but.....
                              It might be more logical to presume a person guilty until proven innocent if human beings are inherently evil. And some point out that, if you look at how Church laws have been used---such as the Inquisition....?....
                              "Indeed, anyone arrested by the Inquisition was presumed guilty until proven innocent, a circumstance very unsettling to us who have enjoyed the blessings of the English common law tradition."
                              https://www.catholicculture.org/cult...cfm?recnum=647

                              Is there a possibility that "original sin" encourages the bias that all humanity is evil except the Christian because only the Christian is "saved"?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                True like all humans we are responsible for our faults and sins since humans were first humans millions of years ago. Unfortunately the Biblical version is Adam and Eve ar responsible for the sinful nature of humanity.


                                No, we did not 'Fall' into sin by the unfortunate transgression of Adam and Eve, but if you believe the literal Genesis version this would be the case. God did not Create us to do evil no more than God Created Adam and Eve to 'Fall' because of the fallible human nature God Created. God Created us as humans and we have the ability to make choice to a degree.
                                What? If God created us fallible as opposed to free (to make our own choices) then God is responsible for our evil.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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