At What Point is the Human Soul/Spirit Created?

[Adrift]

Well our mind seems to be more than just our brains chugging along. I think our brain is more of a spirit/body interface. If it is damaged, it can affect how the mind works, or controls the body, but it isn't the mind itself. Like a radio transmitter. The person broadcasting isn't the radio. If you damage the radio, you could damage the transmission and the message could get garbled.

Funny you mention that, because the radio analogy is the exact one that Heiser himself uses in the next podcast. It's a pretty common analogy, but funny since I just heard it this afternoon.

So while each part is distinct, it all is one. Almost like the trinity.

Yeah, I was going to mention the trinity connection as well, but I'm not certain how legit it is, simply because it breaks down into parts rather than persons, and in that sense doesn't really work, in the same way the egg analogy for the trinity doesn't work. But I see where you're going.

[Sparko]

Funny you mention that, because the radio analogy is the exact one that Heiser himself uses in the next podcast. It's a pretty common analogy, but funny since I just heard it this afternoon.



Yeah, I was going to mention the trinity connection as well, but I'm not certain how legit it is, simply because it breaks down into parts rather than persons, and in that sense doesn't really work, in the same way the egg analogy for the trinity doesn't work. But I see where you're going.

Yep. I agree. But then my body is all "me" and so is my "mind or spirit" - maybe we are a Binity?

[NorrinRadd]

I have an old study I typed up about 25 years ago about "spirit" and "soul." I'm not sure I'd still stand by every detail. I haven't closely looked at it in quite a while. It was from the time I was leaving the Word-Faith movement, and related to their "Man IS a spirit, he HAS a soul, and he LIVES IN a body" theology. It's a single page, RTF. If anyone is interested, I can either copy and paste, and booger up the formatting, or Attach it.

[Teallaura]

I have an old study I typed up about 25 years ago about "spirit" and "soul." I'm not sure I'd still stand by every detail. I haven't closely looked at it in quite a while. It was from the time I was leaving the Word-Faith movement, and related to their "Man IS a spirit, he HAS a soul, and he LIVES IN a body" theology. It's a single page, RTF. If anyone is interested, I can either copy and paste, and booger up the formatting, or Attach it.

Me!



Besides, I already had to duplicate the tab so I can go over Adrift's post again later. Why not throw a few more logs on the tiny spark of a flame that is my brain?...

[lee_merrill]

One more question here, what about twins? Is another soul created or inserted when the egg (or zygote) splits?

I tend to think the first of Adrift's listed views is correct, and that God can do what he wants in the creation of twins.


"For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb. " (Ps 139:13)

Blessings,
Lee

[NorrinRadd]

Me!



Besides, I already had to duplicate the tab so I can go over Adrift's post again later. Why not throw a few more logs on the tiny spark of a flame that is my brain?...

Ok, I shall endeavor to utilize the "Attach" feature.

Crap, I see "RTF" is not supported. I'll see how hard it is to convert to something else.

[NorrinRadd]

Okk... Converting it appears to have "grown" it from one page to four. Whatever. I also got a warning that formatting might not be preserved. I'm going to go ahead and attach and post.

[Teallaura]

Okk... Converting it appears to have "grown" it from one page to four. Whatever. I also got a warning that formatting might not be preserved. I'm going to go ahead and attach and post.

Thanks!

Edit: Downloaded and opened fine - but changed format when I saved it. Still, works just fine!

[KingsGambit]

I recently read that a "traditional" view through at least some of church history has been that life begins at "quickening". (Pro-life advocates hasten to add that this is based on an outdated understanding of biology.) Did Heiser mention this view at all, or is "life" and "soul" being used in a different sense? Or did he just not mention it because nobody holds to it today?

[Adrift]

I recently read that a "traditional" view through at least some of church history has been that life begins at "quickening". (Pro-life advocates hasten to add that this is based on an outdated understanding of biology.) Did Heiser mention this view at all, or is "life" and "soul" being used in a different sense? Or did he just not mention it because nobody holds to it today?

No, he didn't mention that, but then this wasn't a detailed study of the subject, just something he offhand mentioned really (though he's gone into preexistence a bit more in other podcasts). I'm pretty sure life and soul are being used in different senses. Anyways, I'm not sure it makes much sense to talk about the preexistent life of a human without reincarnation (which Heiser is quick to point out is not what Origen had in mind, even though that's what Origen's critics thought he was suggesting).

[Zymologist]

Adrift, I need to get more podcast recommendations from you. This podcast sounds super interesting....

[Adrift]

I think the main reasons that Dr. Heiser is pro-preexistence is

1.) Heiser (in my opinion) overly stresses intertestimental Second Temple literature in the development of the NT canon, and works like the book of Enoch, Wisdom, and the Book of Esdras all suggest some degree of preexistence, likely influenced by popular Platonic or Stoic views of the period of their composition. As big a fan I am of Heiser, he has (again, in my opinion) an unhealthy, nearly canonical appreciation for 1st Enoch. He knows that that the work is pseudepigraphical, but when pushed on it's canonicity (or lack thereof) has kind of side-stepped the issue.

2.) I see similarities between the preexistence view, and Heiser's own view of demons. Dr. Heiser believes that demons are NOT fallen angels (at least, they aren't all fallen angels), rather he believes (again based on intertestimental works), that they are the disembodied souls of dead Nephilim. Heiser believes that, based on Gen. 6, Nephilim were formed when the Sons of God (spiritual beings) mated with the daughters of men, and produced a race of giants. Once disembodied, the souls of these giants heavily desire a host to re-embody (thus possession). Maybe Heiser sees human souls requiring/desiring embodiment in the same sense. I'm not sure what Heiser thinks about the preexistence of Nephilim souls though. I got into contact with him once before about an unrelated topic. I'll have to ask him about it. He believes that there were multi-generations of Nephilm, and if he believes in the preexistence of human souls, it wouldn't make sense for him to discount the preexistence of Nephilim souls as well.

3.) He thinks it answers a number of issues in scripture, including the Hebrews passage I mentioned above.

4.) I'm not sure, but it may work into his view on the Divine Council somehow. Heiser believes that humanity will replace the original members of the Divine Council who led the nations astray when they were given charge over them in Deuteronomy 32:8, and judged for in Psalm 82.

[Adrift]

Adrift, I need to get more podcast recommendations from you. This podcast sounds super interesting....

It is pretty interesting. I had a thread on all of the podcasts I listen to. I'll have to update it. I've since dropped lots, and added new ones.

[Rushing Jaws]

Both 1 & 2 have their theological difficulties. On the whole, I incline to 1. I believe that there is some basis for 3 in post-OT Judaism.

[Adrift]

Both 1 & 2 have their theological difficulties. On the whole, I incline to 1. I believe that there is some basis for 3 in post-OT Judaism.

Can you maybe go into the theological difficulties you see? I think maybe one could argue that God no longer "creates" after the 6th day, or something. I'm not sure how strong a theological argument that might be though.