Originally posted by Adrift
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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At What Point is the Human Soul/Spirit Created?
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostCan you maybe go into the theological difficulties you see? I think maybe one could argue that God no longer "creates" after the 6th day, or something. I'm not sure how strong a theological argument that might be though.
Traducianism has the opposite problem. It preserves the solidarity of all mankind, at the price of making the human soul something that the child inherits from its parents. (Which has the further drawback that it seems to amount to a denial that the soul of man is purely spiritual, and not material.)Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 09-03-2019, 07:08 PM.
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View PostCreationism has the weakness that as God creates each human soul ex nihilo, it is not clear how the guilt of Adam is transmitted to each later person.
Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View PostTraducianism has the opposite problem. It preserves the solidarity of all mankind, at the price of making the human soul something that the child inherits from its parents. (Which has the further drawback that it seems to amount to a denial that the soul of man is purely spiritual, and not material
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View PostCreationism has the weakness that as God creates each human soul ex nihilo, it is not clear how the guilt of Adam is transmitted to each later person.
Traducianism has the opposite problem. It preserves the solidarity of all mankind, at the price of making the human soul something that the child inherits from its parents. (Which has the further drawback that it seems to amount to a denial that the soul of man is purely spiritual, and not material.)Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostIt depends on what you think happened at the fall. We do not inherent Adam's guilt but his nature that will sin. My view is that Adam was filled with the Holy Spirit, and that he lost that when he sinned. And now his offspring are born without that inherent influence. And that God's Spirit could not reenter our sinful vessels without the Sacrifice of Christ (Like the Old Testament Tabernacle) making us clean again. Hence we are now "born again, regenerated."
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe bible is pretty clear that the flesh is where the sinfulness comes in anyway, which would be inherited from the parents. That is why we age and die too. Our bodies are sinful and fallen. One day we will get glorified bodies which will be sinless.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostWhen Paul talks about the flesh sometimes he's talking about the body, but other times he's referring to one's worldly nature, rather than the physical body. I suppose a worldly nature could also be inherited in a sense, but that might be stretching it. I might have to dig into some of the passages that suggest that flesh is where the sinfulness comes in, and what it means by that exactly.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostWhen Paul talks about the flesh sometimes he's talking about the body, but other times he's referring to one's worldly nature, rather than the physical body. I suppose a worldly nature could also be inherited in a sense, but that might be stretching it. I might have to dig into some of the passages that suggest that flesh is where the sinfulness comes in, and what it means by that exactly."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostWhen Paul talks about the flesh sometimes he's talking about the body, but other times he's referring to one's worldly nature, rather than the physical body. I suppose a worldly nature could also be inherited in a sense, but that might be stretching it. I might have to dig into some of the passages that suggest that flesh is where the sinfulness comes in, and what it means by that exactly.
I am trying to remember a chart a sunday school teacher gave us one time...
Adam and Eve before the fall = Able to sin or not sin.
Unsaved Humans (spiritually dead with fallen flesh) = unable to not sin.
Saved humans (spiritually reborn with fallen flesh)= able to sin or not sin*.
Glorified humans = unable to sin.
or something like that.
*I am not sure of the "saved" line. It seems we have more power to not sin because of the Holy Spirit, but we still do.
So our spirit still has something to do with it, but our flesh is what holds us back even though we are saved.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostMy thinking is that when Adam and Eve sinned, their perfect bodies became corrupted. They began to age and eventually died. Sin was like a physical addiction to the fallen human nature. We are unable to not-sin. We can stop ourselves from a particular sinning moment, but eventually we will give in and sin.
I am trying to remember a chart a sunday school teacher gave us one time...
Adam and Eve before the fall = Able to sin or not sin.
Unsaved Humans (spiritually dead with fallen flesh) = unable to not sin.
Saved humans (spiritually reborn with fallen flesh)= able to sin or not sin*.
Glorified humans = unable to sin.
or something like that.
*I am not sure of the "saved" line. It seems we have more power to not sin because of the Holy Spirit, but we still do.
So our spirit still has something to do with it, but our flesh is what holds us back even though we are saved.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostInteresting. I agree with some of this of course. I'm probably someplace between your view and seer's (assuming you're saying something different at all).
I think that is what Paul was saying in Romans 7.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
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