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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    Since you seem to prefer it, here are those notes...
    No, what I prefer is your comments, interspersed with quotes from Scripture or others to back them up.

    Originally posted by lee_merrill
    … regeneration has to precede faith.
    This is a theological presupposition not automatically evident in Scripture itself.
    Well, it stands to reason, life has to precede faith, what can a dead person do?

    For them, becoming as newborn children *followed* the choice to convert and be baptized in water, and was metaphorical (and to some extent legal); for us, it *follows* believing and receiving, and being baptized in the Spirit, and is literal (but not physical).
    You're missing the point that we are dead until God gives us life.

    "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved." (Eph 2:4–5)

    We "begin with the Spirit" when we "receive the Spirit," which is the result of "believing what [we] heard" -- Gal. 3:2-3. We are saved through faith (Eph. 2, inter alia), and faith comes from hearing the word of Christ (Rom. 10:17). We hear, we trust (or do not), we are born again (or are not).
    "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." (Rom. 10:17 UNASB)

    I could read this as "we hear because Christ spoke the word to give us hearing".

    Source: Word Biblical Commentary

    διὰ ῥήματος Χριστοῦ, “through the word of Christ.” ... In this summing-up verse, Paul deliberately recalls v 8 (Lagrange, Gaugler), with perhaps the same sort of ambiguity intended in the genitive (the word of which Christ is content and author), or possibly with the same implication intended as in v 14 (Christ as the bearer of the message; see on 10:14); see Kuss, also Käsemann. Munck, on the basis of the OT parallel ἐγένετο ῥῆμα κυρίου suggests “command” (Christ, 94 and 135n.).

    © Copyright Original Source



    Originally posted by lee_merrill
    "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain." (Re 13:8)
    That Rev. citation doesn't show "choice" any more than it shows foreknowledge.
    Yes, everyone written in the book before the world began will be saved, this is along the lines of Romans 9:

    "... for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” (Ro 9:11–12)

    As for the first part of your comment, how do you figure it doesn't "fit with anyone's theology"? Many of us believe it is possible to apostatize.
    But I don't think the sinful Israelites were first saved, and then apostatized:

    "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear. I have led you forty years in the wilderness..." (Dt. 29:4-5)

    and the tone of His words is that He is uncertain it will be so.
    Does God not know the future?!

    In ch. 29, Moses is placing the ability to assure proper hearts clearly in the power of I AM.
    Agreed.

    "One vessel" is an illustration, a metaphor. And pressing too far on the "no one resists His will," IMO, invites the idea that God Himself is the ultimate author of evil.
    Didn't Job attribute all that happened to him, even the sinful deeds by the Sabeans, etc., to God?

    Job 1:21 "The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised."

    Now if the Lord did not take away, if this was really not God's action, then Job sinned in attributing this to God. Yet we read further down:

    Job 2:10 "Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

    You excised the portion where Keener explained that the recipients of the letter understood election in corporate terms.
    And they were wrong, election to salvation is not corporate, election is of individuals.

    Paul is saying people are chosen because of being (not "to be") in Christ; and of course the only way to be "in Christ" is by faith.
    "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation." (Eph. 1:11-13)

    So "in him we were chosen" is interpreted by "you were included in Christ when you heard the message", i.e. hearing the message first, then faith (Rom 10:17) and being in Christ.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Esther View Post
      Hi this is my first post in years.

      Has there been any discussion about Romans 9:11 and 16 before? I find these two verses and their context very sobering. Probably the most difficult in all of the Bible. Reason: It is comforting to believe that if anyone just seeks after God hard enough one can find Him, but this scripture indicates otherwise?
      Why the “otherwise” ? How could God be sought, if He did not arouse those who seek Him, to do so ? But if God does that in them, how is that not a sign of His love and mercy, goodwill and favour towards them - and a very great sign, at that ? How is such a sign of God’s favour not a very strong motive to persevere in seeking Him ?

      If, and as, it is only by the grace, mercy & power of God that any man can even think of desiring to seek God - let alone persevere to the end, with success, in seeking God ! - how can we do so great a thing by any strength that is by nature in us ? But if God is so gracious, how is that not a very powerful motive to rely on God alone for the grace to seek Him ? Mercy and graciousness are qualities of God’s freedom from all creaturely limitations - but they are not, and do not imply, whim or caprice or arbitrariness. They are manifestations of God’s goodness, and of His covenant-faithfulness.

      Let us not forget, that the way to God Who is sought, is Christ Himself. What greater proof of God’s goodness, mercy, favour, good faith, sincerity, earnestness and will to save can there be, than Christ ? Christian salvation, the search for it, and the seeking of it, are never divorced from Him.
      Romans 9:
      11 And the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God’s purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them],

      16 So then [God’s gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God’s mercy. [It depends not on one’s own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God’s having mercy on him.]
      Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 02-27-2020, 09:12 PM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Esther View Post
        Hi this is my first post in years.

        Has there been any discussion about Romans 9:11 and 16 before? I find these two verses and their context very sobering. Probably the most difficult in all of the Bible. Reason: It is comforting to believe that if anyone just seeks after God hard enough one can find Him, but this scripture indicates otherwise?

        Romans 9:
        11 And the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God’s purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them],

        16 So then [God’s gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God’s mercy. [It depends not on one’s own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God’s having mercy on him.]
        There is a persistent theme in Scripture about a mandate being given to humanity to complete creation so that God is vindicated in His desire to flourish righteousness. It goes underground at the fall, but resurfaces very quickly when God promises Abraham that through him the world would be blessed. This potential role is attached to Israel (made up of Jews) and is only taken away (kingdom of God) when she does not repent, and is given to the church, made up of both Jews and non-Jews.

        So the text is addressing the issue of corporate election. I won’t provide Scriptural support for it, but will exhaustively provide support against any individual election interpretation of Scripture.

        Active participation in the commission to send the Gospel to every corner of the world is taught, and we should be obedient in all ways God has opened to us. Don’t forget that the suffering of the world is prolonged by disobedience, and there is a price to pay. For the sake of shortening the suffering leading to a bad judgment, won’t you change your view? You can ask about the different ways, apart from praying.

        Matthew 24:14This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Esther View Post
          Hi this is my first post in years.

          Has there been any discussion about Romans 9:11 and 16 before? I find these two verses and their context very sobering. Probably the most difficult in all of the Bible. Reason: It is comforting to believe that if anyone just seeks after God hard enough one can find Him, but this scripture indicates otherwise?

          Romans 9:
          11 And the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God’s purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them],

          16 So then [God’s gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God’s mercy. [It depends not on one’s own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God’s having mercy on him.]
          I need to add Romans 3:11, ". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . ."

          God's mercy can only be obtained as an undeseved gift. Those who resist God's mercy as being an undeseved gift end up having one's name removed from God's book because of sin. Exodus 32:33. Revelation 20:15.

          So children are safe. They are for whom Christ died. Matthew 18:3.
          1 John 5:4. Revelation 3:5.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #35
            One reason why the gospel is hidden

            Originally posted by Esther View Post
            Thank you for replies and welcome. These verses remain sobering (not a bad thing) but they also tend to make me want to give up persevering in prayer for others salvation. Ultimately God's Will be done. I accept this and it strangely lifts the burden of praying for and "winning" people to Christ. (I am sure this is not correct thinking but that is where I am at this point).
            The feeling of giving up is one reason the gospel is hidden. Knowing that God’s election rest on God alone will create in us the tendency to not pray for other’s salvation. Sometimes, my knowing that since salvation is God’s work alone, I think and tend to give up hoping, totally. But being pained by my desire for eternal life regardless of my present difficulties had lead me to understand to deal with my frailty as human and my need of a saviour. What I am saying is that we need to search the reasons why the mystery of salvation is not plainly given. If we are not learning properly, we may end up eating meat while we are yet babes. If you feed a babe with meat, it will die.

            Most, I observe, tend to make excuses for God when they encounter difficulties in the Scripture. Such habit will eventually lead them to more confusions, and not able to attain the maturity needed to come to true understanding of the word of God. Such habit had also made others to be stiffnecked because of not discerning their own fooly.
            ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
            ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
            https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              I need to add Romans 3:11, ". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . ."
              Romans 3:11there is no one who understands;
              there is no one who seeks God.

              Background of The Letter to Romans

              Claudius has expelled Jews from Rome. When he dies, the come back to fid that the church is being run by Gentiles. In the power struggle that follows, Gentiles make their feelings, previously hidden, known. God has chosen them to replace Jews as the People of God! They followed conscience and did better than Jews who followed Law!

              However, the Jewish faction will not take this lying down. They have a contract!

              Paul steps in and brings them all down to earth. Gentiles will be judged without the Law, by their conscience, and Jews, with the Law. Since both requirements say the same thing, and both groups failed, nobody has an advantage. All have sinned, both Jews and non-Jews.

              People, Paul is talking about groups, not individuals.

              Romans 3:9What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10As it is written:
              “There is no one righteous, not even one;

              Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
              The feeling of giving up is one reason the gospel is hidden. Knowing that God’s election rest on God alone will create in us the tendency to not pray for other’s salvation. The feeling of giving up is one reason the gospel is hidden. Knowing that God’s election rest on God alone will create in us the tendency to not pray for other’s salvation.
              Please provide Scripture that says election is about individuals.

              Seriously, are you living under a rock? Most denominations, even Calvinists, are not even talking about this topic now, have accepted the corporate election view. The hot topic now is why Western churches are talking about getting into heaven, when 1st century Jews knew eternal life was the restoration of the Adamic mandate, to subdue creation, in partnership with God.

              Far East Bird, what happened to Tercel, Berman and Arminanian? The Romans Clearinghouse Blog?


              I asked at the Facebook group, but no answer. I'm posting in several Facebook groups, there are some good features in that format, you should look up a few pos

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                I need to add Romans 3:11, ". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . ."
                Romans 3:11there is no one who understands;
                there is no one who seeks God.

                Background of The Letter to Romans

                Claudius has expelled Jews from Rome. When he dies, they come back to find that the church is being run by Gentiles. In the power struggle that follows, Gentiles make their feelings, previously hidden, known. God has chosen them to replace Jews as the People of God! They followed conscience and did better than Jews who followed Law!

                However, the Jewish faction will not take this lying down. They have a contract!

                Paul steps in and brings them all down to earth. Gentiles will be judged without the Law, by their conscience, and Jews, with the Law. Since both requirements say the same thing, and both groups failed to meet those requirements, nobody has an advantage. All have sinned, both Jews and non-Jews.

                People, Paul is talking about groups, not individuals.

                Romans 3:9What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10As it is written:
                “There is no one righteous, not even one;

                Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
                The feeling of giving up is one reason the gospel is hidden. Knowing that God’s election rest on God alone will create in us the tendency to not pray for other’s salvation. The feeling of giving up is one reason the gospel is hidden. Knowing that God’s election rest on God alone will create in us the tendency to not pray for other’s salvation.
                Please provide Scripture that says election is about individuals.

                Seriously, are you living under a rock? Most denominations, even Calvinists, are not even talking about this topic now, have accepted the corporate election view. The hot topic now is why Western churches are talking about getting into heaven, when 1st century Jews knew eternal life was the restoration of the Adamic mandate, to subdue creation, in partnership with God.

                Far East Bird, what happened to Tercel, Berman and Arminanian? The Romans Clearinghouse Blog?


                I asked at the TWeb Facebook group site, but got no complete answers. I'm posting in several Facebook groups, there are some good features in that format, you should look up a few posts
                Last edited by footwasher; 08-15-2020, 12:00 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Chiefsinner View Post
                  Paul steps in and brings them all down to earth. Gentiles will be judged without the Law, by their conscience, and Jews, with the Law. Since both requirements say the same thing, and both groups failed to meet those requirements, nobody has an advantage. All have sinned, both Jews and non-Jews.

                  People, Paul is talking about groups, not individuals.

                  Romans 3:9What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10As it is written:
                  “There is no one righteous, not even one;
                  Whether by works or by faithfulness, we all will fail. As clearly explained in James 2:14-26 faithfulness requires work. It is the reason why those who are of the circumcision, “even the prophets” also failed. Christ himself does not simply require faithfulness; we have to obey the “word”.(Luke 6:46) And Paul said, “not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”(Rom 2:13)

                  So what was really the solution to salvation?

                  Gal 6:15. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a NEW CREATURE.

                  To be a new creature means to put on the image of Christ thru possessing same knowledge of Christ.(Eph 4:22-24; Col 3:10). The knowledge of Christ refers to his knowledge of the Godhead. Our salvation hangs on knowing the godhead.(John17:3) It was christ who has the revelation of the Godhead.(John 1:18) it is for this reason that Christ has the word of life(John 6:63; 1John 5:20). Ecclesiastes 7:12 says, “wisdom giveth life to them that have it.” When the disciples were preaching Christ, they were preaching the wisdom of God.(1Cor 2:1-8) However, the knowledge of Godhead is only given to the elect. It is not given to some even though they may have faithfulness. Faithfulness does not make us just, nor makes us worthy to be given the revelation of Godhead. So the lost, though they may possess faithfulness, would not attain the knowledge of Godhead.

                  If faithfulness is the key, then everyone must have been given the same persuasions. But we were not. Some are obviously left in the dark.
                  Last edited by FarEastBird; 08-16-2020, 12:34 AM.
                  ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                  ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                  https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
                    Whether by works or by faithfulness, we all will fail. As clearly explained in James 2:14-26 faithfulness requires work. It is the reason why those who are of the circumcision, “even the prophets” also failed. Christ himself does not simply require faithfulness; we have to obey the “word”.(Luke 6:46) And Paul said, “not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”(Rom 2:13)

                    So what was really the solution to salvation?

                    Gal 6:15. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a NEW CREATURE.

                    To be a new creature means to put on the image of Christ thru possessing same knowledge of Christ.(Eph 4:22-24; Col 3:10). The knowledge of Christ refers to his knowledge of the Godhead. Our salvation hangs on knowing the godhead.(John17:3) It was christ who has the revelation of the Godhead.(John 1:18) it is for this reason that Christ has the word of life(John 6:63; 1John 5:20). Ecclesiastes 7:12 says, “wisdom giveth life to them that have it.” When the disciples were preaching Christ, they were preaching the wisdom of God.(1Cor 2:1-8) However, the knowledge of Godhead is only given to the elect. It is not given to some even though they may have faithfulness. Faithfulness does not make us just, nor makes us worthy to be given the revelation of Godhead. So the lost, though they may possess faithfulness, would not attain the knowledge of Godhead.

                    If faithfulness is the key, then everyone must have been given the same persuasions. But we were not. Some are obviously left in the dark.
                    James says the offering of allegiance, faith, is only lip service. It doesn’t “save”, where salvation means becoming blessings to the world, the promise made to Abraham. In order to receive that, your faith has to be proved. Abraham, Caleb and Jesus were tested and found faithful. Israel, Ananias and Sapphira, failed because of unfaithfulness, did not enter Rest, union with God, knowing God, like Joseph knew Mary.

                    Bottomline, sanctification, entering Rest, is conditional on following lip service with action.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Chiefsinner View Post
                      Bottomline, sanctification, entering Rest, is conditional on following lip service with action.
                      The same you will fail according to Romans 2:13 and James 1:22. Don’t deceive yourself. Certainly, one cannot even know how much action he needed. Switching the argument to putting all responsibilities in the hands of God because one believed suddenly erases the need of action; such is silly.

                      The weightier matter on the faith of Abraham is his understanding of Godhead. The great question to resolve is why did Abraham believed that God could require death and suffering unto a child? The same kind of question we could ask when Christ was offered for the sin of the elect. One will never understand these things if he claims man has a part in attaining his salvation. Even Calvinists were not able to understand these. Since the issue is beyond the understanding of the lost, God made another way of revealing himself, and of his works: “...the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”(Rev 19:10)
                      ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                      ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                      https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
                        The same you will fail according to Romans 2:13 and James 1:22. Don’t deceive yourself. Certainly, one cannot even know how much action he needed. Switching the argument to putting all responsibilities in the hands of God because one believed suddenly erases the need of action; such is silly.

                        The weightier matter on the faith of Abraham is his understanding of Godhead. The great question to resolve is why did Abraham believed that God could require death and suffering unto a child? The same kind of question we could ask when Christ was offered for the sin of the elect. One will never understand these things if he claims man has a part in attaining his salvation. Even Calvinists were not able to understand these. Since the issue is beyond the understanding of the lost, God made another way of revealing himself, and of his works: “...the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”(Rev 19:10)
                        The text says that when people agree with God's claim that He can transport them into a situation where their efforts are rewarded with treasure that does not rust, they are shown how that happens. All they have to do is pick up a cross, be resurrected, and cause the world to be subdued. To show them that they can be resurrected after they die, God created the crisis of Abhimelech for Abraham, and the food and water shortage for Israel (and Christ). Abraham believed God would raise up Isaac and give him back, causing people to follow God. Israel (and Ananias and Sapphira) refused to believe, and did not enter Rest, the situation in which they could bless the world, cause it to turn to God.

                        Bottomline, if you pass the test, you will be a blessing to the world, because you will be in Christ, never dying, and even if you die, will rise up again, causing people like Rahab and Nicodemus to realise that God was with you, and you were fulfilling the purpose of your existence, subduing the world.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
                          The same you will fail according to Romans 2:13 and James 1:22. Don’t deceive yourself. Certainly, one cannot even know how much action he needed. Switching the argument to putting all responsibilities in the hands of God because one believed suddenly erases the need of action; such is silly.

                          The weightier matter on the faith of Abraham is his understanding of Godhead. The great question to resolve is why did Abraham believed that God could require death and suffering unto a child? The same kind of question we could ask when Christ was offered for the sin of the elect. One will never understand these things if he claims man has a part in attaining his salvation. Even Calvinists were not able to understand these. Since the issue is beyond the understanding of the lost, God made another way of revealing himself, and of his works: “...the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”(Rev 19:10)
                          The text says that when people agree with God's claim that He can transport them into a situation where their efforts are rewarded with treasure that does not rust, they are shown how that happens. All they have to do is pick up a cross, be resurrected, and cause the world to be subdued. To show them that they can be resurrected after they die, God created the crisis of Abhimelech for Abraham, and the food and water shortage for Israel (and Christ). Abraham believed God would raise up Isaac and give him back, causing people to follow God. Israel (and Ananias and Sapphira) refused to believe, and did not enter Rest, the situation in which they could bless the world, cause it to turn to God.

                          Bottomline, if you pass the test, you will be a blessing to the world, because you will be in Christ, never dying, and even if you die, will rise up again, causing people like Rahab and Nicodemus to realise that God was with you, and that you were fulfilling the purpose of your existence, subduing the world.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Chiefsinner View Post
                            The text says that when people agree with God's claim that He can transport them into a situation where their efforts are rewarded with treasure that does not rust, they are shown how that happens. All they have to do is pick up a cross, be resurrected, and cause the world to be subdued. To show them that they can be resurrected after they die, God created the crisis of Abhimelech for Abraham, and the food and water shortage for Israel (and Christ). Abraham believed God would raise up Isaac and give him back, causing people to follow God. Israel (and Ananias and Sapphira) refused to believe, and did not enter Rest, the situation in which they could bless the world, cause it to turn to God.

                            Bottomline, if you pass the test, you will be a blessing to the world, because you will be in Christ, never dying, and even if you die, will rise up again, causing people like Rahab and Nicodemus to realise that God was with you, and that you were fulfilling the purpose of your existence, subduing the world.
                            Still you can’t know how much work will prove your faith to past the test. Your solution to salvation has left you to have both work and faith necessary. Your argument is self defeating, hence none can be justified by works, then you will fail to justify your faithfulness to pass the test.
                            ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                            ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                            https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
                              Still you can’t know how much work will prove your faith to past the test. Your solution to salvation has left you to have both work and faith necessary. Your argument is self defeating, hence none can be justified by works, then you will fail to justify your faithfulness to pass the test.
                              Luke 18:28Peter said, “Behold, we have left our own homes and followed You.” 29And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.”

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Chiefsinner View Post
                                Luke 18:28 Peter said, “Behold, we have left our own homes and followed You.” 29 And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.”
                                I will still use the same line of answer from my previous latest post. And you can't prove yourself to have had passed the test.

                                As I said in my other post, Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything in Christ, but a NEW CREATURE. For which I said that the basis for salvation of God is the possession of the knowledge of God. Your knowledge of salvation cannot prove anything, take that a sign that you don't have the proof you are saved.
                                ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                                ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                                https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

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