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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Esther View PostI am applying this scripture specifically to the persevering part. For example, there are many I have prayed for for years to be saved after sharing the Gospel with them in various ways. These verses free me from continuing to persevere.
For me, I find it a mistake to assume I'm going to see the fruition of every prayer. Thing is, we don't always (or even often) know which role we are playing. Am I the plowman, or the reaper? (Or my case, the ox or the donkey ) Did I sow the seed or just bust up some dirt? Even if I'm helping with the harvest, I may not see that particular stalk come in to the barn.
It's harder on the analogy, but I think we're the tools the Holy Spirit chooses to employ - or not. He alone knows whether it's time for the plowshare or the scythe. My job is to just hack at whatever He's aiming for - and let Him do the real work where only He can."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post1 Corinthians 3:6 acknowledges that people play roles in bringing people to Jesus, while not neglecting to mention that it's ultimately God that does the work. I don't think anybody would ever get the idea that it's otherwise without different theological concepts forcing them to view it a different way, but that's what happens.
One of the real blessings of Facebook (yes, it has its good points) is when somebody from my ministry nearly FIFTY YEARS AGO hunts me down on Facebook to tell me they're now living for Jesus, and a Pastor or Missionary, or otherwise serving the Lord or living the Christian life.
Fact is, we're told to be witnesses, so we should do it faithfully whether we think it works or not.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostYet OT people were saved in the same way we are, by faith, Abraham is the very example of salvation by faith in the New Covenant.
And I note again the passive (on our part) analogies of salvation in Scripture, why would Jesus say "You must be born again" if he was speaking of ultimately, a free choice on Nicodemus' part? Yes, we have a choice to make in salvation, but behind that choice is the choice of God.
Going beyond just the wording of the English translations, there is the matter of the cultural background, in which the concept of becoming "as newborn children" was already tied to the ritual baptism applied to converts to Judaism. I usually copy and paste several paragraphs from my IVP Bible Background Commentary, but this time I'll just link here.
FTR, I have the same perspective on John 1. The "It's all God" side emphasizes v. 13, and especially the "human decision" or "will of man" portions of most translations, especially the more "literal" ones; that side also, IMO, distorts v. 12, claiming it refers to something separate from v. 13. The synergist side emphasizes v. 12, seeing that we "believe" and "receive" BEFORE we "become (His) children" (= are "born of God").Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
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"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostP.S. Though I would say to Esther that we need not give up praying for people, God works through our prayers to carry out his will.
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostWhy? Scripture is replete with examples and admonishments to persevere.
For me, I find it a mistake to assume I'm going to see the fruition of every prayer. Thing is, we don't always (or even often) know which role we are playing. Am I the plowman, or the reaper? (Or my case, the ox or the donkey ) Did I sow the seed or just bust up some dirt? Even if I'm helping with the harvest, I may not see that particular stalk come in to the barn.
It's harder on the analogy, but I think we're the tools the Holy Spirit chooses to employ - or not. He alone knows whether it's time for the plowshare or the scythe. My job is to just hack at whatever He's aiming for - and let Him do the real work where only He can.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAnd there's no promise that the person we are praying for to receive Salvation will ever actually receive Salvation, or they COULD, but we might never know it til we see them in Glory.
Fact is, we're told to be witnesses, so we should do it faithfully whether we think it works or not.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post1 Corinthians 3:6 acknowledges that people play roles in bringing people to Jesus, while not neglecting to mention that it's ultimately God that does the work. I don't think anybody would ever get the idea that it's otherwise without different theological concepts forcing them to view it a different way, but that's what happens.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostCorrect, but the NT faith requires a confession that Jesus is the Christ.
"Ye must be born again" is the condition by which one is saved. He was not ordering Nicodemus to be born again, He was passionately making it plain that it was a requirement for Salvation.
But this doesn't fit passive analogies, where the person is completely passive in salvation.
Originally posted by NorinRaddTo me, your view turns it into the cruelest of taunts: "You must be born from above to enter Heaven. Will you, Nicodemus, be one of the ones God chooses to beget? Maybe, maybe not. Sucks to be you if you're not, but it's out of your hands."
"For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Ro 11:32)
I have the same perspective on John 1. The "It's all God" side emphasizes v. 13, and especially the "human decision" or "will of man" portions of most translations, especially the more "literal" ones; that side also, IMO, distorts v. 12, claiming it refers to something separate from v. 13. The synergist side emphasizes v. 12, seeing that we "believe" and "receive" BEFORE we "become (His) children" (= are "born of God")."What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by Esther View PostThank you for input. It would be good if you could please provide me with scriptural references that support that God works through our prayers to carry out His will. Specifically with regards to the salvation of others. I am at a place where no matter what my effort or lack thereof, God's Will will ultimately be done and this gives me a strange peace."What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post...
Yes, but the analogy is passive on Nicodemus' part, thus the question "how can this be?"...
God in his mercy chooses people for salvation, this is not a taunt--and I believe Scripture give us reason to believe that God will choose everyone.
"For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Ro 11:32)
And yes, of course I know YOU don't see it as a taunt. But *I* am really not able to see it any other way, if indeed Nicodemus is entirely "passive" in the matter.
Well, we receive before we become God's children, but I believe this reception is more acknowledgement of Jesus, not a saving belief in him. We do not believe before becoming God's children, according to John, and indeed, salvation is "not from human decision", as Paul concurs.
Here I will quote at some length Keener's notes from the IVP Bible Background CommentaryLast edited by NorrinRadd; 09-02-2019, 06:43 PM.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
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Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostYou didn't bother to look at the link I posted, did you?
What do we do about the many passages that teach that some will be consigned to everlasting torment and destruction?
And yes, of course I know YOU don't see it as a taunt. But *I* am really not able to see it any other way, if indeed Nicodemus is entirely "passive" in the matter.
I see v. 13 as talking about who takes the initiative, not about unilateral action.
"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created." (Jas 1:18)
I don't think this fits with anyone's theology, people start out in the book, and are blotted out when they sin egregiously? Or if they do not overcome (Rev. 3:5)? But I think God's choice is primary here, too:
"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain." (Re 13:8)
"Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear." (Dt. 29:4)
God's choice in salvation.
"Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever!" (Dt. 5:29)
God's desire for their salvation, not such a good text for human responsibility.
But where is foreknown faith in Scripture?
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostWell, arguing by link is taboo.But I find Keener's belief that people are born again after believing to be unscriptural, regeneration has to precede faith.
We teach them too, and let God sort out what will happen and when, I believe eternity will be unlike anyone expects--as in the cross, which no one predicted.
But the question at hand is whether salvation is passive, not whether this is a taunt.
How is life from the dead not passive, how is being born not passive, how is a new creation not passive on our part?
And I see "not of human decision" as saying our decision is secondary, dependent on God's decision.
"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created." (Jas 1:18)
I don't think this fits with anyone's theology, people start out in the book, and are blotted out when they sin egregiously? Or if they do not overcome (Rev. 3:5)? But I think God's choice is primary here, too:
"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain." (Re 13:8)
As for the first part of your comment, how do you figure it doesn't "fit with anyone's theology"? Many of us believe it is possible to apostatize. Someone who did so would be in the Book of Life, and then erased. Conceptually, Rev. 3:5 does not sound too unlike Matt. 10:32-33.
"Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear." (Dt. 29:4)
God's choice in salvation.
"Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever!" (Dt. 5:29)
God's desire for their salvation, not such a good text for human responsibility.
Well, predestination is certainly not arbitrary, ...
"One vessel" is an illustration, a metaphor. And pressing too far on the "no one resists His will," IMO, invites the idea that God Himself is the ultimate author of evil.
But where is foreknown faith in Scripture?
You excised the portion where Keener explained that the recipients of the letter understood election in corporate terms. Jews believed they were chosen automatically by virtue of ethnic descent from Abraham. Paul is saying people are chosen because of being (not "to be") in Christ; and of course the only way to be "in Christ" is by faith.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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