Most difficult Scripture?

[lee_merrill]

Since you seem to prefer it, here are those notes...

No, what I prefer is your comments, interspersed with quotes from Scripture or others to back them up.

This is a theological presupposition not automatically evident in Scripture itself.

Well, it stands to reason, life has to precede faith, what can a dead person do?

For them, becoming as newborn children *followed* the choice to convert and be baptized in water, and was metaphorical (and to some extent legal); for us, it *follows* believing and receiving, and being baptized in the Spirit, and is literal (but not physical).

We "begin with the Spirit" when we "receive the Spirit," which is the result of "believing what [we] heard" -- Gal. 3:2-3. We are saved through faith (Eph. 2, inter alia), and faith comes from hearing the word of Christ (Rom. 10:17). We hear, we trust (or do not), we are born again (or are not).

"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." (Rom. 10:17 UNASB)

I could read this as "we hear because Christ spoke the word to give us hearing".

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain." (Re 13:8)

That Rev. citation doesn't show "choice" any more than it shows foreknowledge.

Yes, everyone written in the book before the world began will be saved, this is along the lines of Romans 9:

"... for though the twins were not yet born

As for the first part of your comment, how do you figure it doesn't "fit with anyone's theology"? Many of us believe it is possible to apostatize.

But I don't think the sinful Israelites were first saved, and then apostatized:

"Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear. I have led you forty years in the wilderness..." (Dt. 29:4-5)

and the tone of His words is that He is uncertain it will be so.

Does God not know the future?!

In ch. 29, Moses is placing the ability to assure proper hearts clearly in the power of I AM.

Agreed.

"One vessel" is an illustration, a metaphor. And pressing too far on the "no one resists His will," IMO, invites the idea that God Himself is the ultimate author of evil.

Didn't Job attribute all that happened to him, even the sinful deeds by the Sabeans, etc., to God?

Job 1:21 "The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised."

Now if the Lord did not take away, if this was really not God's action, then Job sinned in attributing this to God. Yet we read further down:

Job 2:10 "Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

You excised the portion where Keener explained that the recipients of the letter understood election in corporate terms.

And they were wrong, election to salvation is not corporate, election is of individuals.

Paul is saying people are chosen because of being (not "to be") in Christ; and of course the only way to be "in Christ" is by faith.

"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation." (Eph. 1:11-13)

So "in him we were chosen" is interpreted by "you were included in Christ when you heard the message", i.e. hearing the message first, then faith (Rom 10:17) and being in Christ.

Blessings,
Lee

[Rushing Jaws]

Hi this is my first post in years.

Has there been any discussion about Romans 9:11 and 16 before? I find these two verses and their context very sobering. Probably the most difficult in all of the Bible. Reason: It is comforting to believe that if anyone just seeks after God hard enough one can find Him, but this scripture indicates otherwise?

[footwasher]

[37818]

I need to add Romans 3:11, ". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . ."

God's mercy can only be obtained as an undeseved gift. Those who resist God's mercy as being an undeseved gift end up having one's name removed from God's book because of sin. Exodus 32:33. Revelation 20:15.

So children are safe. They are for whom Christ died. Matthew 18:3.
1 John 5:4. Revelation 3:5.

[FarEastBird]

One reason why the gospel is hidden

Thank you for replies and welcome. These verses remain sobering (not a bad thing) but they also tend to make me want to give up persevering in prayer for others salvation. Ultimately God's Will be done. I accept this and it strangely lifts the burden of praying for and "winning" people to Christ. (I am sure this is not correct thinking but that is where I am at this point).

[footwasher]

I need to add Romans 3:11, ". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . ."

Please provide Scripture that says election is about individuals.

Seriously, are you living under a rock? Most denominations, even Calvinists, are not even talking about this topic now, have accepted the corporate election view. The hot topic now is why Western churches are talking about getting into heaven, when 1st century Jews knew eternal life was the restoration of the Adamic mandate, to subdue creation, in partnership with God.

Far East Bird, what happened to Tercel, Berman and Arminanian? The Romans Clearinghouse Blog?


I asked at the Facebook group, but no answer. I'm posting in several Facebook groups, there are some good features in that format, you should look up a few pos

[footwasher]

I need to add Romans 3:11, ". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . ."

Please provide Scripture that says election is about individuals.

Seriously, are you living under a rock? Most denominations, even Calvinists, are not even talking about this topic now, have accepted the corporate election view. The hot topic now is why Western churches are talking about getting into heaven, when 1st century Jews knew eternal life was the restoration of the Adamic mandate, to subdue creation, in partnership with God.

Far East Bird, what happened to Tercel, Berman and Arminanian? The Romans Clearinghouse Blog?


I asked at the TWeb Facebook group site, but got no complete answers. I'm posting in several Facebook groups, there are some good features in that format, you should look up a few posts

[FarEastBird]

[footwasher]

[FarEastBird]

Bottomline, sanctification, entering Rest, is conditional on following lip service with action.

[footwasher]

The text says that when people agree with God's claim that He can transport them into a situation where their efforts are rewarded with treasure that does not rust, they are shown how that happens. All they have to do is pick up a cross, be resurrected, and cause the world to be subdued. To show them that they can be resurrected after they die, God created the crisis of Abhimelech for Abraham, and the food and water shortage for Israel (and Christ). Abraham believed God would raise up Isaac and give him back, causing people to follow God. Israel (and Ananias and Sapphira) refused to believe, and did not enter Rest, the situation in which they could bless the world, cause it to turn to God.

Bottomline, if you pass the test, you will be a blessing to the world, because you will be in Christ, never dying, and even if you die, will rise up again, causing people like Rahab and Nicodemus to realise that God was with you, and you were fulfilling the purpose of your existence, subduing the world.

[footwasher]

The text says that when people agree with God's claim that He can transport them into a situation where their efforts are rewarded with treasure that does not rust, they are shown how that happens. All they have to do is pick up a cross, be resurrected, and cause the world to be subdued. To show them that they can be resurrected after they die, God created the crisis of Abhimelech for Abraham, and the food and water shortage for Israel (and Christ). Abraham believed God would raise up Isaac and give him back, causing people to follow God. Israel (and Ananias and Sapphira) refused to believe, and did not enter Rest, the situation in which they could bless the world, cause it to turn to God.

Bottomline, if you pass the test, you will be a blessing to the world, because you will be in Christ, never dying, and even if you die, will rise up again, causing people like Rahab and Nicodemus to realise that God was with you, and that you were fulfilling the purpose of your existence, subduing the world.

[FarEastBird]

The text says that when people agree with God's claim that He can transport them into a situation where their efforts are rewarded with treasure that does not rust, they are shown how that happens. All they have to do is pick up a cross, be resurrected, and cause the world to be subdued. To show them that they can be resurrected after they die, God created the crisis of Abhimelech for Abraham, and the food and water shortage for Israel (and Christ). Abraham believed God would raise up Isaac and give him back, causing people to follow God. Israel (and Ananias and Sapphira) refused to believe, and did not enter Rest, the situation in which they could bless the world, cause it to turn to God.

Bottomline, if you pass the test, you will be a blessing to the world, because you will be in Christ, never dying, and even if you die, will rise up again, causing people like Rahab and Nicodemus to realise that God was with you, and that you were fulfilling the purpose of your existence, subduing the world.

[footwasher]

[FarEastBird]

I will still use the same line of answer from my previous latest post. And you can't prove yourself to have had passed the test.

As I said in my other post, Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything in Christ, but a NEW CREATURE. For which I said that the basis for salvation of God is the possession of the knowledge of God. Your knowledge of salvation cannot prove anything, take that a sign that you don't have the proof you are saved.