Originally posted by NorrinRadd
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Originally posted by lee_merrill
For them, becoming as newborn children *followed* the choice to convert and be baptized in water, and was metaphorical (and to some extent legal); for us, it *follows* believing and receiving, and being baptized in the Spirit, and is literal (but not physical).
"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved." (Eph 2:4–5)
We "begin with the Spirit" when we "receive the Spirit," which is the result of "believing what [we] heard" -- Gal. 3:2-3. We are saved through faith (Eph. 2, inter alia), and faith comes from hearing the word of Christ (Rom. 10:17). We hear, we trust (or do not), we are born again (or are not).
I could read this as "we hear because Christ spoke the word to give us hearing".
Originally posted by lee_merrill
"... for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” (Ro 9:11–12)
As for the first part of your comment, how do you figure it doesn't "fit with anyone's theology"? Many of us believe it is possible to apostatize.
"Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear. I have led you forty years in the wilderness..." (Dt. 29:4-5)
and the tone of His words is that He is uncertain it will be so.
In ch. 29, Moses is placing the ability to assure proper hearts clearly in the power of I AM.
"One vessel" is an illustration, a metaphor. And pressing too far on the "no one resists His will," IMO, invites the idea that God Himself is the ultimate author of evil.
Job 1:21 "The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised."
Now if the Lord did not take away, if this was really not God's action, then Job sinned in attributing this to God. Yet we read further down:
Job 2:10 "Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.
You excised the portion where Keener explained that the recipients of the letter understood election in corporate terms.
Paul is saying people are chosen because of being (not "to be") in Christ; and of course the only way to be "in Christ" is by faith.
So "in him we were chosen" is interpreted by "you were included in Christ when you heard the message", i.e. hearing the message first, then faith (Rom 10:17) and being in Christ.
Blessings,
Lee
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