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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
    I will still use the same line of answer from my previous latest post. And you can't prove yourself to have had passed the test.

    As I said in my other post, Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything in Christ, but a NEW CREATURE. For which I said that the basis for salvation of God is the possession of the knowledge of God. Your knowledge of salvation cannot prove anything, take that a sign that you don't have the proof you are saved.
    As I said, the text says that those who believe that God can save in any situation, are the ones who are baptised into Christ, are shown death and resurrection, like Abraham and Israel. Now they must prove they really believe:

    Hebrews 3: 7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
    8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
    AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
    9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
    AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
    10“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
    AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
    AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;
    11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
    ‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”

    However, they should not be overconfident that they will pass the test. If at this stage they change their mind, they should negotiate with God:

    Luke 14:31“Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32“Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. 33“So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

    However, many people haven’t even been baptised into Christ, so they haven’t even seen God’s great works.

    Acts 19:1It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
    Last edited by footwasher; 08-17-2020, 02:15 PM.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Chiefsinner View Post
      As I said, the text says that those who believe that God can save in any situation, are the ones who are baptised into Christ, are shown death and resurrection, like Abraham and Israel. Now they must prove they really believe:

      Hebrews 3: 7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
      “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
      8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
      AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
      9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
      AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
      10“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
      AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
      AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYSÂ’;
      11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
      ‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”

      However, they should not be overconfident that they will pass the test. If at this stage they change their mind, they should negotiate with God:

      Luke 14:31“Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32“Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. 33“So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

      However, many people havenÂ’t even been baptised into Christ, so they havenÂ’t even seen GodÂ’s great works.

      Acts 19:1It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
      You cannot deny that the salvation you propose requires the "willingness" and the "faithfulness" of the believer.

      In "faithfulness", work is required. James clearly said "...shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." Earlier in the epistle, he said, "...But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." If you need to justify yourself with faithfulness, then you have to justify your faith through your works. Do I really need to tell you this over and over again?

      Your call to believe requires the "willingness" but the salvation of God has a requisite of the need to be born again is something beyond the will of man to control. So the salvation of man is not within man's control, it has nothing to do with the will of man.

      Both faithfulness and willingness requires works..... don't deceive yourself.

      The justification of Abraham is not his work per se, but of WHAT he believed that lead to his work. Think very well, chiefsinner, and be truly fair in judging this question: "is offering the life of a child a good work?" The answer is no, chiefsinner. That means that it is not really the work that justifies Abraham, rather the real focus was of WHAT he believed. Abraham must have a good reason why his willingness to offer the life of Isaac could be justified. Else by his work alone of offering the life Isaac will portray God as a monster. Many have not noticed that in their interpretation of the word of God, they are dishonoring God. When people do not admit that their interpretation of God's doctrine is foolish, they dishonor God by portraying God as a promoter of foolishness.

      Wisdom is what will give us life eternal. Christ came to give us that wisdom (1John 5:20). We may all say the same things, but those who do no know the wisdom that is of God are lost.
      ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
      ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
      https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
        You cannot deny that the salvation you propose requires the "willingness" and the "faithfulness" of the believer.
        Sure, genuine love requires willingness and faithfulness.

        In "faithfulness", work is required. James clearly said "...shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."
        So James is a heretic?

        Earlier in the epistle, he said, "...But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."
        Right, meaning lip service, promising to be faithful isn’t enough, we need you to act faithfully.

        If you need to justify yourself with faithfulness, then you have to justify your faith through your works. Do I really need to tell you this over and over again?
        Sure, no problem, i DO want to claim works are needed if I want to justify my faithfulness. Justifying my account book means proving the record is real. Justifying my faith means proving my promise to be faithful by works, action. Deeds, not only lip service.

        Your call to believe requires the "willingness" but the salvation of God has a requisite of the need to be born again is something beyond the will of man to control. So the salvation of man is not within man's control, it has nothing to do with the will of man.
        Caleb was born again. He remembered God’s great works of resurrection and he obeyed when God’s voice asked him to prove he remembered. However, Israel:

        Psalm 78:11They forgot what he had done— the great wonders he had shown them.

        Search “they forgot” in biblehub.com/ You will be surprised. Also:

        Hebrews 4:2For indeed we have had glad tidings presented to us, even as they also; but the word of the report did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard.

        When Israel was deprived of food and water, then rescued, that was the glad tidings, the Gospel, spiritual food and water, bread from heaven. Jesus also did great rescues, fed bread from heaven, even to the Canaanite woman. To prove if you pick up the cross, like Caleb, people like Rahab and Nicodemus would be shocked to be born again too, repent, meta noia, change their mind, turn from serving self interest to serve God. From Mammon to unselfishness.

        Numbers 14:22“Surely all the men who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who spurned Me see it. 24“But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.

        Both faithfulness and willingness requires works..... don't deceive yourself.
        So you are not faithful and willing?

        The justification of Abraham is not his work per se, but of WHAT he believed that lead to his work. Think very well, chiefsinner, and be truly fair in judging this question: "is offering the life of a child a good work?" The answer is no, chiefsinner.
        Well God offered His own Child, proving His promise wasn’t just lip service.

        That means that it is not really the work that justifies Abraham, rather the real focus was of WHAT he believed. Abraham must have a good reason why his willingness to offer the life of Isaac could be justified. Else by his work alone of offering the life Isaac will portray God as a monster. Many have not noticed that in their interpretation of the word of God, they are dishonoring God. When people do not admit that their interpretation of God's doctrine is foolish, they dishonor God by portraying God as a promoter of foolishness.
        Abraham believed God would return Isaac back to him. He believed it was connected to God’s promise to make him a blessing to the world. He believed that when his son was raised from the dead, it would draw all men to God, like Rahab and Nicodemus were drawn to God, to repent, turn from selfishness to unselfishness.

        God offered His own Child. He is not a monster. He is not being dishonored. The Bible is not foolish.

        Wisdom is what will give us life eternal. Christ came to give us that wisdom (1John 5:20). We may all say the same things, but those who do no know the wisdom that is of God are lost.
        Back atcha!

        By the way, what baptism did you receive?

        Comment


        • #49
          Chiefsinner and Fareast bird, can salvation be as simple as believing John 3:16? I say yes! I have gone back over this thread and would like to say I have continued to pray for people who are not saved and tell them about Jesus and leave the final outcome with the Lord.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Esther View Post
            Chiefsinner and Fareast bird, can salvation be as simple as believing John 3:16? I say yes! I have gone back over this thread and would like to say I have continued to pray for people who are not saved and tell them about Jesus and leave the final outcome with the Lord.
            See at 5:10:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICHovRHJAYY

            Tercel used to post here right? Here's what he says about John 3:16:

            Quote
            Outside of the Bible, what is the Greek word for faith (pistis) used to mean? We're in luck... the first century Jewish historian Josephus uses it in his writings.

            In his autobiography, Jospehus describes a time when he was the leader of a small army, and another group had tried to kill him. Josephus captures the enemy leader and says to him “repent and have faith in me hereafter” (Life 110). What Josephus clearly means by this is “become part of my army, and obey my commands.”

            http://theogeek.blogspot.com/2005/02...-of-faith.html

            PS Is Tercel now Starlight?
            Last edited by footwasher; 08-18-2020, 01:29 PM.

            Comment


            • #51
              The salvation I propose is that God does all the works. I don't will on my own, nor work on my own. My knowledge of Godhead that God had given me makes me to will and to work. I did not receive my knowledge of the Godhead because of my faithfulness, nor of my work, rather my knowledge of the Godhead forces me to will and to work. The gift of knowledge came first before I came to have the willingness and faithfulness. The gift of knowledge of the godhead is the salvation. So Ir received my salvation first, thru being gifted of the knowledge of the godhead, before I came to have the genuine work and faithfulness.

              The salvation you propose requires that you to have both work and have faithfulness before receiving the blessing of salvation.

              Originally posted by Chiefsinner View Post
              Sure, genuine love requires willingness and faithfulness.
              In your perspective you need to work out your love by willingness and faithfulness. But in my case, I am not required to work out the willingness and faithfulness because I know I was elected. And through the gift of knowledge of the Godhead given unto me, it guides me to do good things without hoping that I will be rewarded.

              So James is a heretic?
              Not at all! Moses was not heretic even though he gave the law that is futile in justifying ourselves...... Actually it was God who gave the law, right? Would you like to call God a heretic?

              The law works as schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ. But when a person would not be able to grow up, then he's stuck to be under the law, under a curse.

              Unless one understands James real point, his words will just be futile; for those who read and does not understand Jame's point would only interpret James words to be requiring work.


              Right, meaning lip service, promising to be faithful isnÂ’t enough, we need you to act faithfully.

              Sure, no problem, i DO want to claim works are needed if I want to justify my faithfulness. Justifying my account book means proving the record is real. Justifying my faith means proving my promise to be faithful by works, action. Deeds, not only lip service.
              You still don't see that you are doomed to fail. You cannot separate work and faith, yet you would exclude yourself from the curse of work.


              Caleb was born again. He remembered GodÂ’s great works of resurrection and he obeyed when GodÂ’s voice asked him to prove he remembered. However, Israel:

              Psalm 78:11They forgot what he had done— the great wonders he had shown them.

              Search “they forgot” in biblehub.com/ You will be surprised. Also:

              Hebrews 4:2For indeed we have had glad tidings presented to us, even as they also; but the word of the report did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard.

              When Israel was deprived of food and water, then rescued, that was the glad tidings, the Gospel, spiritual food and water, bread from heaven. Jesus also did great rescues, fed bread from heaven, even to the Canaanite woman. To prove if you pick up the cross, like Caleb, people like Rahab and Nicodemus would be shocked to be born again too, repent, meta noia, change their mind, turn from serving self interest to serve God. From Mammon to unselfishness.

              Numbers 14:22“Surely all the men who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who spurned Me see it. 24“But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.
              Sorry, but I have to say you seem like that you do not understand the mystery of being born again. We are born again by the hearing the word of God. It was Christ who revealed to us the "word", meaning was not able to attain being born again because the word was not yet revealed during his time. To be born again, is to be a new creature in the image of Christ, who is in the image of God. And to have the image of Christ is to have the same mind with Christ. So Caleb was not born again because he do no have the revelation of the word as yet.


              So you are not faithful and willing?
              Have you forgotten the parable of the son and the servant? Though in my youth I thought I needed to please my Father for his favor, but now I know that my willingness nor faithfulness to my father was not the true reason why I received my inheritance.


              Well God offered His own Child, proving His promise wasnÂ’t just lip service.
              Just like I said in a previous post, if you do not understand the real reason of Jesus' sacrifice you would end up dishonoring God with your flawed understanding of how Jesus' sacrifice work.


              Abraham believed God would return Isaac back to him. He believed it was connected to GodÂ’s promise to make him a blessing to the world. He believed that when his son was raised from the dead, it would draw all men to God, like Rahab and Nicodemus were drawn to God, to repent, turn from selfishness to unselfishness.

              God offered His own Child. He is not a monster. He is not being dishonored. The Bible is not foolish.
              It is not about the Bible is foolish, rather your flawed conception which is foolish.


              Back atcha!

              By the way, what baptism did you receive?
              I don't think I can discuss to you about baptism at this time.
              ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
              ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
              https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Esther View Post
                Chiefsinner and Fareast bird, can salvation be as simple as believing John 3:16? I say yes! I have gone back over this thread and would like to say I have continued to pray for people who are not saved and tell them about Jesus and leave the final outcome with the Lord.
                Did Abraham and other prophets know of John 3:16? Obviously not!
                ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
                  The salvation I propose is that God does all the works. I don't will on my own, nor work on my own. My knowledge of Godhead that God had given me makes me to will and to work. I did not receive my knowledge of the Godhead because of my faithfulness, nor of my work, rather my knowledge of the Godhead forces me to will and to work. The gift of knowledge came first before I came to have the willingness and faithfulness. The gift of knowledge of the godhead is the salvation. So Ir received my salvation first, thru being gifted of the knowledge of the godhead, before I came to have the genuine work and faithfulness.
                  Knowledge of Godhead means you can know God just like Joseph knew Mary:

                  Matthew 1:25 KJV And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn.

                  Matthew 1:25 ESV But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son.

                  John 17:3 KJV And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

                  The salvation you propose requires that you to have both work and have faithfulness before receiving the blessing of salvation.
                  James said his opponent boasted he had faith without works, but what really was required was faith confirmed by works. So what kind of faith do you have?

                  In your perspective you need to work out your love by willingness and faithfulness. But in my case, I am not required to work out the willingness and faithfulness because I know I was elected. And through the gift of knowledge of the Godhead given unto me, it guides me to do good things without hoping that I will be rewarded.
                  All the Bible references to election are about Israel, a group, not individuals. Please show a passage where an individual is elected for salvation.

                  Not at all! Moses was not heretic even though he gave the law that is futile in justifying ourselves...... Actually it was God who gave the law, right? Would you like to call God a heretic?
                  You said James was wrong if he taught works is required, but that James never taught that doctrine. However, the text says James did teach that doctrine. Luther called James's letter an "epistle of straw", not Scripture, to be thrown out. Luther made so many mistakes!

                  James 2:14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

                  The law works as schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ. But when a person would not be able to grow up, then he's stuck to be under the law, under a curse.
                  The word "pedagogos" means babysitter, not schoolmaster. He looks after the baby till the parents arrive. Israel is looked after by the law till Christ is sent. God gave the law to Israel to protect her. If the law was not there, Israel would have disappeared like Sodom and Gomorrah.

                  Unless one understands James real point, his words will just be futile; for those who read and does not understand Jame's point would only interpret James words to be requiring work.
                  Your fight is with Scripture, not me. You'll have to twist Scripture to prove you are right. It says action is required, otherwise your promise to be faithful is only lip service, and cannot save. You have to prove you are loyal, like Caleb:

                  Hebrews 4:7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
                  “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
                  DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

                  8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

                  You still don't see that you are doomed to fail. You cannot separate work and faith, yet you would exclude yourself from the curse of work.
                  I put myself under a curse only if I act like the Galatians, who try to do what Christ was supposed to do. If I'm like the publican who believed the whole law was God's word, I would be justified. The fault of the Pharisee in the Temple was believing only the minor rules of the law were required.

                  Sorry, but I have to say you seem like that you do not understand the mystery of being born again. We are born again by the hearing the word of God. It was Christ who revealed to us the "word", meaning was not able to attain being born again because the word was not yet revealed during his time. To be born again, is to be a new creature in the image of Christ, who is in the image of God. And to have the image of Christ is to have the same mind with Christ. So Caleb was not born again because he do no have the revelation of the word as yet.
                  The text says Israel heard the Gospel in the wilderness, the promise that God would resurrect anybody who picked up the cross when commanded. Caleb believed, had a different spirit, was born again. Jesus taught that Nicodemus should believe like Caleb, in order to subdue creation, humanity's privilege, live the Kingdom life, eternal life.

                  Have you forgotten the parable of the son and the servant? Though in my youth I thought I needed to please my Father for his favor, but now I know that my willingness nor faithfulness to my father was not the true reason why I received my inheritance.
                  Only those who enter Rest, have God dwelling in them, are inheritors, of whom Christ is the first beneficiary. Those who enter Rest are those who obey God's voice to stop depending on mammon, selfish work, and start serving unselfishness. Israel was afraid to lay down her life to bless people like Rahab, so she never entered Rest. Caleb risked his life, was protected, and Rahab saw the result, motivating her to promise to be faithful to God. Of course God will test her baptism, but first He will give her proof, like He gave Caleb (and Christ). If you are not baptised like Paul taught in Acts 19, you will never receive proof of God's great works.

                  Just like I said in a previous post, if you do not understand the real reason of Jesus' sacrifice you would end up dishonoring God with your flawed understanding of how Jesus' sacrifice work.
                  Jesus's sacrifice is the wedding feast. Previously He gave bread, so that God's good news, to Israel, of always rescuing those in Christ, could be demonstrated. When He was resurrected, He drew the whole world to God, not just Israel.

                  It is not about the Bible is foolish, rather your flawed conception which is foolish.
                  Prove it with Scripture, you will see from the text who is flawed. Luther thought Paul was rebuking the Jews for depending on works. Wrong, his rebuke was they were depending on works of the law, the marks which identified Abraham's descendants, circumcision. However, Abraham's children were actually identified by loyalty to God. This has been proved by scrolls found in a Dead Sea cave, where a Teacher of Righteousness taught that ritual purity, washing of hands, was the marks that identified kosher, observant, righteous, Jews, children of Abraham. Different rabbis taught different different works of the law during the first century, to escape the wrath to come. However, Pilate killed their disciples. A huge tower fell on others. John the Baptist's disciples were safe, because they had fruit, works that proved their loyalty, not just minor points of the law, but the important matters too, justice, mercy and faithfulness.

                  Matthew 3:107But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8“Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

                  I don't think I can discuss to you about baptism at this time.
                  Better get the right baptism.
                  Last edited by footwasher; 08-19-2020, 05:17 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
                    Did Abraham and other prophets know of John 3:16? Obviously not!
                    I am asking whether any person who reads or hears John 3:16 can simply believe and be saved. I say yes. The Holy Spirit can then enter them, lead them and they will find themselves hungering and thirsting for righteousness and want to hear and read more of the Word.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Esther View Post
                      I am asking whether any person who reads or hears John 3:16 can simply believe and be saved. I say yes. The Holy Spirit can then enter them, lead them and they will find themselves hungering and thirsting for righteousness and want to hear and read more of the Word.
                      That tends to make John 3:16 seem like "the magic verse" or something -- I think you're on better foundation by acknowledging that the Holy Spirit is key. I think I'm in the minority here sometimes when, for example, I don't think somebody has to affirm the virgin birth to be saved.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        That tends to make John 3:16 seem like "the magic verse" or something -- I think you're on better foundation by acknowledging that the Holy Spirit is key. I think I'm in the minority here sometimes when, for example, I don't think somebody has to affirm the virgin birth to be saved.
                        I agree with you on the virgin birth. Sometimes I listen to what preachers add to you must believe in order to be saved and think they've created a salvation by the works of belief. I think the essentials of the faith is shorter than what most people believe.
                        "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                        "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                          I agree with you on the virgin birth. Sometimes I listen to what preachers add to you must believe in order to be saved and think they've created a salvation by the works of belief. I think the essentials of the faith is shorter than what most people believe.
                          If you look at the thief on the cross, there was precious little involved --- noting, of course, that's a one-of-a-kind.

                          But, yeah, preachers seem to be notorious for "adding stuff in".

                          I'm currently working on a 2 to 2 1/2 minute video on "how to get saved", and even stumble at the part where you pray "the prayer" - I find myself saying "and ask Jesus into your heart", where there is no such Biblical requirement or suggestion.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            If you look at the thief on the cross, there was precious little involved --- noting, of course, that's a one-of-a-kind.

                            But, yeah, preachers seem to be notorious for "adding stuff in".

                            I'm currently working on a 2 to 2 1/2 minute video on "how to get saved", and even stumble at the part where you pray "the prayer" - I find myself saying "and ask Jesus into your heart", where there is no such Biblical requirement or suggestion.
                            Initial reaction, "asking Jesus into your heart" seems more discipleship than salvation. Indeed, it's the Holy Spirit that abides in us and not Jesus. I wonder if "asking Jesus into your heart" is softer way of saying make Jesus the Lord of your life. You can sort of get there via the verse where Jesus says if you love Me, you'll do my commandments.
                            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                              Initial reaction, "asking Jesus into your heart" seems more discipleship than salvation. Indeed, it's the Holy Spirit that abides in us and not Jesus. I wonder if "asking Jesus into your heart" is softer way of saying make Jesus the Lord of your life. You can sort of get there via the verse where Jesus says if you love Me, you'll do my commandments.
                              I think maybe it comes from Child Evangelism --- yeah, a "softer way". Then there's thing about dividing it into "I asked Jesus to be my Savior, now I'm asking Him to be my Lord".
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                I think maybe it comes from Child Evangelism --- yeah, a "softer way". Then there's thing about dividing it into "I asked Jesus to be my Savior, now I'm asking Him to be my Lord".
                                Yes, certainly Jesus is both. Since we're all human, we do one or the other better.

                                Thinking about your video, the one I would do if I ever got the gumption would be "I'm saved, now what?"
                                "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                                "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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