Christianity Is Dangerous

[One Bad Pig]

What a delightful post, Lao Tzu.

I'll throw this out there for consideration.
Bear in mind I don't consider this heroic but I did find it instructive.

Six years ago a negligent mother fled the State of Michigan with her son of thirteen. Child protective services wanted to take him away from her because there were drugs in the home. This past summer the young man, now 18, showed up on my doorstep. he had no money, no food, a change of clothes, and a wet comforter that he'd slept upon in the night. The two lesbians he was living with had kicked him out. He had no place to go.

I took the rest of the day off work. I bought him a tent, a new sleeping bag, some food and we set about to get everything he owned washed. We developed a friendship, we played video games in my home, and we began the process of getting him some help.

I could only do so much - I don't have the kind of faith that would bring him into my home because I fear for my daughter - but no matter, a total stranger to the both of us, a middle aged woman of faith, took him in before it got cold. The both of us determined to be this young man's friend. I told him only of God's love for him and he told me about the pagan gods he worshipped, about his bi-sexuality, about how he took $50 I gave him for his birthday to get a sex piercing. *sigh* Good times.

One night I got a call from the woman who was helping him. She was desperately poor herself but still generous enough to take in this guy. Any ways, he'd been in a fight at a trailer park and he'd been arrested. He was in jail and terrified. Bail was set at $300.00.

Now I could judge this young man and I'd be absolutely right on every count.
But instead, I decided to toss out the judgment thing and give insane love a try.
I bailed the guy out of jail - and my reward - the most enthusiastic and the most wonderful hug of gratefulness I've ever received.
Plus I learned all kinds of crazy things about myself and other people.

If unconditional love gives me those kinds of rewards in the here and now and absolutely nothing in the afterlife I'm okay with that.
I've already been paid back many times over.

I'll take this as something of an answer to my last question. I agree that unconditional love is all that's likely to get through to those who have been scarred by wolves in sheep's clothing. Unconditional love isn't easy to get across in a forum setting, however. And in your hypothetical scenario, even that is doomed to failure because the skeptic will at best regard you as an aberration from the norm.

[Darth Xena]

I'll be sanctimonious with you because I know you can handle it.

What does 'rights' have to do with being a Christian?
It may be rational for a Christian to be afraid of secular rule but we should be trusting that our Lord has this thing under control. We've the Lord of Life on our side and death is only gain so why would be we terrified? Of all men we should be the least frightened because we're the least invested in this world. Granted, that is the ideal but it's one that I want to work towards. What does Christ say, "Don't fear those that can harm the body, fear the one that can condemn your soul".

Why are you worried/concerned about our response then, does God not gave that under control? It seems you are just reluctant to concede an obvious point. I get tired and lose interest when I see that happening. I was using rights in the same sense you were for the atheist. I do not why you refuse to see the converse.

Do you think it is Biblical for us to be afraid at all?
I understand we'll all have fear but aren't we to work to mature out of it?

Yes -- you are picking at words I think. We have been given stewardship of a heritage and we are to have concern for it. I really really don't mean to offend, but sanctimoniousness is not attractive.

The answers are correct, but not appropriate.

The truth is always appropriate.

[Darth Xena]

I'll be sanctimonious with you because I know you can handle it.

What does 'rights' have to do with being a Christian?
It may be rational for a Christian to be afraid of secular rule but we should be trusting that our Lord has this thing under control. We've the Lord of Life on our side and death is only gain so why would be we terrified? Of all men we should be the least frightened because we're the least invested in this world. Granted, that is the ideal but it's one that I want to work towards. What does Christ say, "Don't fear those that can harm the body, fear the one that can condemn your soul".

Why are you worried/concerned about our response then, does God not gave that under control? It seems you are just reluctant to concede an obvious point. I get tired and lose interest when I see that happening. I was using rights in the same sense you were for the atheist. I do not why you refuse to see the converse.

Do you think it is Biblical for us to be afraid at all?
I understand we'll all have fear but aren't we to work to mature out of it?

Yes -- you are picking at words I think. We have been given stewardship of a heritage and we are to have concern for it. I really really don't mean to offend, but sanctimoniousness is not attractive.

The answers are correct, but not appropriate.

The truth is always appropriate.

[Darth Executor]

And?

If you can't keep track of the conversation then stop posting.

[Darth Xena]

Are we to let power-thirsty people have their way with others? If so, how does that square with coming to the aid of your "neighbor"?

Which is why I think strict pacifism is immoral.

[Christianbookworm]

Was it right for the Allies to war against Germany and Japan in World War 2, gerbil?

[TimelessTheist]

If you can't keep track of the conversation then stop posting.

You cut out part of my post....

[TimelessTheist]

If you can't keep track of the conversation then stop posting.

You cut out part of my post....

[lilpixieofterror]

No. Religion is a special case. It has always been and will always be a troublesome element of human culture. Its business is brainwashing – have you not noticed?

That's right FF because you see... when I went with the youth group last Sunday to see Frozen or when I dressed up as Rapunzel for a Halloween party... what I was really doing is prepping them for being put into the brainwashing chair so their indoctrination can be complected. However; we can't let you spread The Trooth^TM so I'm afraid we got to send the black helicopters after you to erase your memory. Please don't fight, it just makes it worse for you. In all seriousness, do you have any idea how paranoid this post makes you sound? You're almost sounding like our resident conspiracy theorist.

[lilpixieofterror]

Would it help if we were to call it critical thinking instead? Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency, relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness.
This is copied from - http://www.criticalthinking.org//

Interesting because the Bible actually tells us to test everything and to hold onto what is good. Want to try this again?

[Darth Executor]

You cut out part of my post....

Of course I did, it's a red herring and not worth responding to. If I had said the crusaders were bad or all bad it would be relevant, but it's not.

[lilpixieofterror]

Oh, yeah, one who thinks every evildoer is a loner. And no such thing as a conspiracy fact, because no such thing as a conspiracy. Sigh.

It is because no amount of evidence is ever good enough for a conspiracy theorist and a lack of evidence is just more evidence somebody is trying to cover up something. Sorry, I still don't feel like dealing with conspiracy theorist today. Perhaps tomorrow will be better (but I doubt it).

[Andius]

As you wish

One thing that is beginning to annoy me a little bit is the tendency of Christian apologists to wave off 1,500 years of abuse in the name of Jesus Christ as if it were a trifle, a unfortunate misunderstanding, or a theological tiff. Church history is rife with the systemic rape, torture, enslavement, and murder of opponents of the one truth faith. Often, these cleansings were carried out against people whose faith system was quite nearly indistinguishable from those of the oppressor. It is a sordid, sick history of the presence of hell on earth.

And so it is. I will grant you that merely waving it off is a cheap cop out, but to claim that Christian paradigm intrinsically endorses such institutionalized terror is just as cheap.

I've seen the apologists attack this issue by pointing to the eradication of slavery in the USA. This argument is one of many that just doesn't gain any traction, after all, it is just another case of Christian on Christian violence. Should the skeptic really be impressed that it took a Civil War for a Christian nation to eradicate slavery? Let's be serious.

Yes let's be serious. Attributing the necessity of a civil war to abolish US Slavery, when it was a secondary issue to a far far larger one (US Southern citizenry seeking break off from the Washington D.C. regime) is not going to impress anyone well versed in United States history. Pro-slavers and anti-slavers alike sought to validate their discourse with Bible writ, true, but to attribute such a thing that drove Southerners to aggress against Union assets, Christian violence... please... Next thing you know, you are going to call Obama's bombing of Libya "Christian Violence"....

Another ridiculous argument usually involves laying out before the skeptic some long winded explanation about how the various sects of Christianity are different from one another. The problem is that every single branch of Christianity has violence in its past, with perhaps the exception of the Anabaptists, who were largely exterminated by other sects - we've a history of people claiming the name of Jesus Christ to kill pacifists! This approach is a train wreck.

Sweet buttery buddhas.... you do love to characterize social phenomena with absurdly broad strokes don't you? Let's forget about Quakers and Mennonites, traditions with fairly strong records of peace, and don't get me started with a good number of individual Eastern Congregations that hardly had the backing of the sword. Anabaptists are the exception!

Oh and by the way.... Anabaptists, the exception? BAHAHAHAHA Don't make me laugh. Anabaptists had a peaceful wing, yes that's true, but the other wing also consisted of radical loons like Thomas Müntzer that incited masses and German princes to start pointless wars under the pretext of starting "Christ's reign". Not to mention having a track record for maintaining highly oppressive regimes in some German towns. In a manner of speaking, these Anabaptists insured their own destruction when the armies aligned with Rome came to crush their regime.

Seriously, take some courses on Ecclesiology. Don't expect respect from my part if you insist on such egregious errors on your Church history.

The abuse continues to our current day. From the sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, which was systemically covered up for decades, to the bat-poop nuttiness of Protestant Fundamentalists, who engage in the most glaring forms of psychological abuse every Sunday at 10:00am - to the really weird and sick stuff that rolls around under cover of darkness - the history is ongoing and it is a sad, sick, perverted heap of sin. Don't try to sell me the idea this stuff isn't ongoing, I was in a Fundy church that involved thousands of people. I saw the abuse up front and in person.

And who's denying it? As Darth Executor adequately put, such is wretchedness that the Church has allowed to fester, and worst even institutionalized it. Confessional Law effectively forbids pointing fingers (Primary reason why pedophiles get away easily, henceforth, it's protection), followed by penalizing consisting of "relocation" which only takes the problem to another place. That the Church shelters these men, demonstrates how some of it's members will be quick to protect themselves for the sole purpose of sating their lusts and safeguard their "honor/reputation". With all the ecclesiastical bureaucracy placed that virtually prohibits reforming Church Canon Law, it is a fitting monument of man's wretchedness clothed in divinity (One can only hope Francis and his people will actually have the nerve to try to dismantle such things, Darth Executor's measurements are actually excellent).

So here is the burr for me.

When a atheist comes to TWEB and starts taking about 'Theocracy' and fears about the 'Christian Right' and how Christians are bigots who are anxious to use power to destroy other human beings that atheist isn't some off the wall dingbat who is making stuff up. The dude just got up this morning and read the paper. Our marketing problems aren't his problems. Frankly, I hope Christians NEVER get power in any government on this planet again - and if you need examples as to why I feel that way I'd be happy to take you to a couple of churches I know. The sermons they deliver there will make you physically sick.

One is easily scared when you resort to invent exaggerated bogeymen instead of maintaing a calm demeanor to properly understand the phenomenon of oppression. I am sure that the reader of a newspaper is not fibbing, but news media hardly represents the whole details of how government functions, especially in matters involving oppression. And in light that both Theocracies and Atheocracies (secular governments) have oppressed alike, and have also allowed a great many freedoms (Nations like the UAE, a modern theocracy, yet surprisingly livable and quite benign to non-Muslims to certain extent), said reader does not reflect an informed being, it reflects a fearmongerer.

You are hoping a brother or sister never take the reins of State powers, yeah... as if restricting entry to Christians are actually going to solve the problem of oppression. You are not very good at this "problem solving" thing are you? Cuz we KNOW for sure that those of "secular orientation" will NEVER oppress anyone once they have power....

The skeptics/atheists/militant-feminist-lesbian-meth-smokers are afraid of Christians for perfectly justifiable reasons.
We need to recognize that the fear is grounded in REALITY and that many of these people have experienced abuse first hand.
It is absurd that we expect abused people who are fully aware of church history to come in here and be perfectly polite.

Wrong, their fear is based on paranoia, drunk with the discourse that secular statesmanship is the sole means of good governance and justice, as if it were the adequate "arbitrator" within a society with a plurality of beliefs. So spare me this nonsense that reality is on their side, especially in light that a State that embraces a theocratical or atheocratical framework, will hardly and automatically necessitate an oppressive outcome. And do also spare me that such groups are the sole recipients of abuse, when a religious and non-religious alike are propicient to abuse from State authorities, and merely believing something else is hardly EVER the sole cause of why such abuse comes to them in the first place. It is absurd to have to expect such people who are so politically illiterate.

It is a miracle any of them talk to us at all.

It is a miracle you are even able to relatively coherent sentences, let alone assemble words. Especially in light of such uninformed understandings

[Trout]

Wrong, their fear is based on paranoia, drunk with the discourse that secular statesmanship is the sole means of good governance and justice, as if it were the adequate "arbitrator" within a society with a plurality of beliefs.

Mr Andius, what would be the best case study to validate your point that the skeptic's fear is based in paranoia? Which theocratic or ecclesiocratic system past or present represents good governance? Would it be Calvin's Geneva? Vatican city? Modern day Iran? Something else?

It is a miracle you are even able to relatively coherent sentences [sic]

Seriously? That's funny stuff.

Do you want some ointment for that burn?

[Paprika]

REGARDING ATROCITIES AND THE CHURCH
When talking with Skeptics who express fear of Christian rule, especially those that have been hurt by Christians or those who can point to the long history of abuse by Christians, it is counter productive to expect them to recognize all of the fine distinctions those of us in the faith recognize. Double talk about who is a real Christian and who isn't just looks silly. By way of example, how do you feel about used car salesmen? Would you find the claim by a used car salesman "Hey, I'm not like those guys" to be convincing? Of course not. You might come to believe that after he earned your trust and kept your trust over a period of many years - he'd be demonstrating that he's different through personal, one-on-one interaction.

What wouldn't convince you dozens of posts by the used car salesman telling you how you're an idiot for not recognizing that he's different.
In fact, how many posts from a used car salesman wherein he claims he's different would you have to read before you concluded he's desperate?

I've found it's better to admit that those bearing the name of Christ have done horrible things and that the skeptic has every rational reason to be terrified of Christian rule. Expecting someone who doesn't believe there is a God to accept that idea that you're different because of God is ridiculous. After that, go on and develop a real relationship with that person until they come to see that you're someone that can be trusted. They'll know us by our love, Dee Dee, not by our ability to splice history in an never ending argument about who poked who in the eye first.

To summarize this point: It isn't that the answer that is given to the skeptic is wrong, it's just he's in a place where it isn't going to make sense.

If they want to be irrational, I'm not sure hugging them is the most productive thing to do. As you say, they'll know us by our love, so you should show them how Christianity is Awesome.