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Thread: A pre-Cambrian arthropod ancestor?

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    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
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    A pre-Cambrian arthropod ancestor?

    Interesting find announced today - a foot long, segmented worm from the Ediacaran, the period that came before the Cambrian explosion. Paper here:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1522-7

    Popular article here:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/04/s...ortichnia.html

    It's an important find. We've found one or two bilateral animals in the Ediacaran. And we've found a lot of tracks made by mobile animals. But the two didn't match up - the animals we knew about couldn't make tracks like the ones we saw. The new animal end that - they actually found a track leading right up to the body of one, so there was no doubt this was the source. And it definitively shows there were mobile bilateral animals before the Cambrian.


    Separate from the news, it's also relevant to one of Lee's threads, where he was arguing that the arthropods of the Cambrian having eyes and a brain showed that these features appeared suddenly instead of evolving. So, this thing is clearly not an arthropod, since arthropods are defined in part by the presence of eyes and a brain. And there's a chance it's an annelid, like many present-day segmented worms. But the discoverers of this fossil see things that might be like insect legs on the segments. In which case this would have a subset of arthropod features, and therefore be a strong candidate for the sort of creature that would be an arthropod precursor.

    In which case Lee's argument would be even worse than it was at the time.

    (Sorry i can't be bothered to find the original discussion. Was a bit of a car crash, and i'd rather not have looking at it set off some sort of internet-driven PTSD....)
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  2. Amen shunyadragon, rogue06, Seeker amen'd this post.
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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    In which case this would have a subset of arthropod features, and therefore be a strong candidate for the sort of creature that would be an arthropod precursor.

    In which case Lee's argument would be even worse than it was at the time.
    What I was arguing for was an early head and heart, and a creature in the Ediacaran with insect-like legs would not affect this argument.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    Interesting find announced today - a foot long, segmented worm from the Ediacaran, the period that came before the Cambrian explosion. Paper here:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1522-7

    Popular article here:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/04/s...ortichnia.html

    It's an important find. We've found one or two bilateral animals in the Ediacaran. And we've found a lot of tracks made by mobile animals. But the two didn't match up - the animals we knew about couldn't make tracks like the ones we saw. The new animal end that - they actually found a track leading right up to the body of one, so there was no doubt this was the source. And it definitively shows there were mobile bilateral animals before the Cambrian.


    Separate from the news, it's also relevant to one of Lee's threads, where he was arguing that the arthropods of the Cambrian having eyes and a brain showed that these features appeared suddenly instead of evolving. So, this thing is clearly not an arthropod, since arthropods are defined in part by the presence of eyes and a brain. And there's a chance it's an annelid, like many present-day segmented worms. But the discoverers of this fossil see things that might be like insect legs on the segments. In which case this would have a subset of arthropod features, and therefore be a strong candidate for the sort of creature that would be an arthropod precursor.

    In which case Lee's argument would be even worse than it was at the time.

    (Sorry i can't be bothered to find the original discussion. Was a bit of a car crash, and i'd rather not have looking at it set off some sort of internet-driven PTSD....)
    The critter in question has been named Yilingia spiciformis, which translates to "spiky Yiling bug" with Yiling being the name of the Chinese district in the province of Hubei near the discovery site in the Yangtze Gorges area.



    It looks like they uncovered 35 specimens with the longest being 27cm/10.6" in length but since that specimen was incomplete this means that animal was longer than that.

    It is being described as resembling a millipede-like or elongated trilobite although what their relation to one another is still unknown.

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    What I was arguing for was an early head and heart, and a creature in the Ediacaran with insect-like legs would not affect this argument.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Back peddling par excellence. As usual trolling around for 'arguing from ignorance.' The Hokus Boggus 'missing links' approach to fossil evidence.

    By the way this species likely has a primitive nervous system, sensory capability, and head. because it crawls on it own power. If you follow the fossil evidence the heart and circulatory system evolved later.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-05-2019 at 04:27 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

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    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    What I was arguing for was an early head and heart, and a creature in the Ediacaran with insect-like legs would not affect this argument.
    Your inability to understand how to interpret evidence does not make for a compelling argument.
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  7. Amen shunyadragon, Seeker amen'd this post.
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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    By the way this species likely has a primitive nervous system, sensory capability, and head. because it crawls on it own power.
    There doesn't seem to be a head on the reconstructed critter. And sensory capability? Why that?

    If you follow the fossil evidence the heart and circulatory system evolved later.
    Well, that was kind of my point.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    There doesn't seem to be a head on the reconstructed critter. And sensory capability? Why that?
    Because it hadn't involved yet. Which, if this turns out to be an arthropod ancestor, means that rather than being an "early head and heart", those features had tens of millions of years to evolve. Which, by most reasonable standards, means they're rather late.
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    There doesn't seem to be a head on the reconstructed critter. And sensory capability? Why that?
    Please note it crawls in one direction and has motor skills indicating a primitive nervous system. es it likely has a head, but a primitive one. Besides, your perpetual motion half life of missing links arguing from ignorance' fails to acknowledge the fossil evidence as another part of the evolution of life.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-06-2019 at 06:46 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    Source: NY Times

    Because Yilingia is made up of repeated, symmetrical segments, it is closer to the form that evolved into most life on earth, including human beings. Segmentation allowed for legs and wings.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Does this mean Yilingia didn't have legs? And it's referred to time and again as a worm, which would have a simpler nervous system than a legged creature.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  12. #10
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Source: NY Times

    Because Yilingia is made up of repeated, symmetrical segments, it is closer to the form that evolved into most life on earth, including human beings. Segmentation allowed for legs and wings.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Does this mean Yilingia didn't have legs? And it's referred to time and again as a worm, which would have a simpler nervous system than a legged creature.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    The present fossil knowledge indicates that it has a primitive nervous system, primitive head and capable locomotion and determining its motion, direction and feeding, and the head is different from the tail based on the fossil evidence. Stop this foolishness of 'arguing from ignorance' to justify your agenda.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-07-2019 at 08:33 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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