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NYT - Trump Administration Considers a Drastic Cut in Refugees Allowed to Enter

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Sam View Post
    It would be difficult to point to region with high refugee rates that the US didn't have a hand in destabilizing. The Syrian refugee crisis, for instance, probably would not happened without the Iraq War.

    --Sam
    Along those lines, it should go without saying that it's unconscionable for the US to be deporting members of Michigan's Chaldean Christian community to Iraq.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      So you want to pick and choose your moral laws from the OT?

      What about the passages where God has the Israelites kill every alien man, woman and child and take their land and possessions? That seems pretty parallel with the verses you are quoting about welcoming aliens. Why don't we just invade Mexico and take everything after killing them all? That sounds biblical and it is talking about aliens and alien lands.
      Sparko - these worlds border on blasphemy. I think you need to pull it back a bit - we will give an account of our words. There is no theological basis for equating God's general commands to care for the poor, the stranger etc and specific commands associated with the establishment of the state of Israel, commands that are at best difficult to understand in ANY context - let alone a perverse gneralization of violence against any nation NOT the US.

      The Bible tells us that religious people who neglect the poor, especially for some self-righteous dogma, will be judged harshly. What did Jesus say to those that claimed to know him, that thought they deserved to be with Him, but ignored the poor, those in prison, etc? And then he turns it on its head and talks to people that DON'T think they deserve to be with Him and bases his acceptance of them on when the DID care for the poor, those in prison etc.

      And these are not Paul's worlds Sparko, these are not OT words either - these are Jesus' words telling us how we should live and how we should react to those around us that are poor or suffering.


      Jim
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Sam View Post
        But I don't think people use the term "charity" in that way, referring to relatives or close kin. What Ester is talking about seems along the lines of "We should take care of our homeless veterans before spending money on illegal aliens". It's a false dichotomy, in any sense, but the charity in question is referring to citizens and residents, not kin.

        --Sam
        I think we can deduce a broader principle that we are foremost responsible for those directly within our sphere of influence, though other forms of help are not thereby ruled out (such as Paul's appeals to help the struggling Macedonians). I agree it is a false dichotomy, and that proposing it admits an existing failure to help, say, homeless veterans. Nonetheless, the US safety net could be broader, but cannot be stretched indefinitely, so prioritizing the former as a sort of triage is not inherently wrong. What is wrong is nobody caring about helping homeless veterans until they see the opportunity to use them as ammunition in this debate.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          But our GOVERNMENT is not. Therefore, we can not hold them to scriptural standards on refugees.
          Neither can we support nor rejoice when that government violates God's principles, nor can we defend it doing so. In fact, since we are in a democracy and we have a voice in what our government does, we have a responsibility to speak out against policies that violate God's decrees, and to support and very much vote for policies that are consistent with God's decrees.


          Jim
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            Along those lines, it should go without saying that it's unconscionable for the US to be deporting members of Michigan's Chaldean Christian community to Iraq.
            Indeed. It's horrific and even worse how Iraqi and Afghani interpreter visas have been reduced to almost zero now.

            --Sam
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              When you understand that the US is not Israel, it clears up pretty quickly.



              Yes
              It doesn't matter. Jesus' sets a much higher standard for us in that He laid down his life for sinners, for those that hated and persecuted Him.

              Jesus tells us we are to love all mankind, and he tells us that whatever we do the 'the least of these' we do to Him. And that is also how He judges us. We are forgiven, so we MUST forgive. We are loved, and so we MUST love. We are not judged, and so we MUST NOT judge. And these commands are not out of compulsion. To do any less is to spit in the face of He who gave His life for us. We cannot demand payment from the fellow that owes us $1, because we have been forgiven trillions. And if we do, Jesus does not have good words for what will become of us.

              We simply can't join with those that want to banish those that wish to come here. Trump is on a crusade against people that come here. Each week he ratchets it up. Now it's refugees.

              Refugees - people fleeing wars and violence and famine.


              Jim
              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Sam View Post
                Indeed. It's horrific and even worse how Iraqi and Afghani interpreter visas have been reduced to almost zero now.

                --Sam
                I don't see anything good in the trend as it relates to Trump, his adminstration, and his war on immigration.

                It just keeps getting worse, more shrill.


                Jim
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  I think we can deduce a broader principle that we are foremost responsible for those directly within our sphere of influence, though other forms of help are not thereby ruled out (such as Paul's appeals to help the struggling Macedonians). I agree it is a false dichotomy, and that proposing it admits an existing failure to help, say, homeless veterans. Nonetheless, the US safety net could be broader, but cannot be stretched indefinitely, so prioritizing the former as a sort of triage is not inherently wrong. What is wrong is nobody caring about helping homeless veterans until they see the opportunity to use them as ammunition in this debate.
                  Agreed. So the question, in this circumstance, would be whether USA has the capacity to assist refugees at or above the traditional caps and whether the funds that were allocated to that are being better spent. We are not, to my knowledge, re-appropriating any money "saved" on refugee resettlement (a hard figure to calculate, since refugee resettlement spurs short-term and long-term economic growth) back toward domestic social welfare programs.

                  --Sam
                  "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    I think I ultimately agree more with you than Sam here but this isn't a good analogy because God instructed the Israelites to kill Canaanites on specific occasions. There was no blanket rule that all foreigners had to be killed at all time, the way the Levitical laws were blanket laws.

                    I do think that the US has an obligation to allow refugees from Central American countries because its military has destablilized the region in the course of unsuccessfully fighting the War on Drugs, though.
                    Indeed. I sometimes wonder if that isn't why previous administration policies were much more lax: Those administrations recognized our moral responsibility to extend a helping hand to those whose misery our policies helped create.


                    Jim
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      It is, by White House reporting, part of a deliberate campaign promise/strategy; "immigration" will be a key 2020 election focus for the Trump campaign and that means Stephen Miller -- an anti-immigration zealot -- wields a lot of power.

                      Which means that it will, by design, keep getting worse.

                      --Sam

                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      I don't see anything good in the trend as it relates to Trump, his adminstration, and his war on immigration.

                      It just keeps getting worse, more shrill.


                      Jim
                      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Sam View Post
                        Hello and welcome, Ester,

                        I'm not aware of any Scriptural or moral directive that tells us charity should start at home; it very often does, of course, and people are good to pursue local charity. But nothing in Scripture or Christian belief tells us to satisfy the needs of our "own" before giving aid to "the other". Indeed, we see them combined in Scripture as a unified group.
                        Hi and thanks. The concept of charity starting at home is more a good practice, common sense one and not necessarily strictly scriptural. For example, if my children or close family or even my church family were in need of daily provisions or health care or education etc and I didn't properly provide these things for them but instead provided these things to strangers, it would not be (logically or morally) right.

                        Illegal immigration isn't really an issue here, since we're talking about the refugee program run by USCIS; these are refugees from countries and regions who apply for resettlement, go through various screening processes and interviews, and are placed in USA through organizations that partner with USCIS.

                        Where illegal immigration involves a crime, it's not in residency: it's not a crime to reside in USA without documentation. Illegal border crossing is a crime but it's typically a misdemeanor offense, like jaywalking in most places. It was, in fact, a civil infraction before a white supremacist successfully led a movement to change it into a criminal offense.

                        --Sam
                        People breaking and entering into anything, a house/country surely is a full blown crime?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Sam View Post
                          Indeed. It's horrific and even worse how Iraqi and Afghani interpreter visas have been reduced to almost zero now.

                          --Sam
                          Are they sending them back, or just not letting any more in. If the former, it is absolute and utter betrayal of those that helped us, and a massive 'shoot yourself in the foot' policy as we will no longer be able to expect such help in the future.

                          Jim
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Esther View Post
                            Hi and thanks. The concept of charity starting at home is more a good practice, common sense one and not necessarily strictly scriptural. For example, if my children or close family or even my church family were in need of daily provisions or health care or education etc and I didn't properly provide these things for them but instead provided these things to strangers, it would not be (logically or morally) right.
                            We certainly should do that and one can make the argument that the country should, as well -- but this analogy depends, then, on the country responsibly allocating its funds. To keep up with the analogy, it wouldn't be morally permissible to "take care of one's own" by stockpiling hundreds of guns and thousands of rounds of ammunition while people in the community were starving.

                            In our current situation, the government does allocate resources to the degree of frugality that would allow us to consider the analogy to household care equivalent.


                            Originally posted by Esther View Post
                            People breaking and entering into anything, a house/country surely is a full blown crime?
                            It's a misdemeanor offense, typically, and used to not be a criminal offense at all. The "default state" is that humans have a right to move freely; while this right must be balanced against the authority of a country or state to create and police its own borders, it's a modern convention that crossing the border into another country constitutes a criminal violation.

                            --Sam
                            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              Are they sending them back, or just not letting any more in. If the former, it is absolute and utter betrayal of those that helped us, and a massive 'shoot yourself in the foot' policy as we will no longer be able to expect such help in the future.

                              Jim
                              I'm not aware of any visas that have been revoked for Iraqi and Afghani interpreters, though an unknown number were swept up in the Trump administration's travel ban. Interpreters who are still waiting for a promised US visa have been stonewalled.

                              Where Iraqi Christians are being sent from Michigan back to Iraq doesn't deal with people who were interpreters but have largely been in the country for decades, some of whom came as children. They should qualify for temporary protected status (TPS), at minimum, but are being routinely deported, regardless. One man recently died, after trying to argue that he would be unable to find insulin if deported back to Iraq. This was true and he died shortly after deportation.

                              --Sam
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Sam View Post
                                This continues to be an obvious red herring. The government policy relates to how many refugees can be admitted per year. Y'all are trying to treat it like a policy limiting individual actions, like how many beers can be bought on Sunday.

                                That would require a system of free movement, which the government doesn't allow. So the "as a government policy" line doesn't remotely work.

                                --Sam
                                Not a red herring at all. I have no problem at all with the US government changing its immigration policy with regard to refugees, even to the point of not accepting them at all, just as I would have no problem with the government eliminating entitlement programs.

                                However, I would certainly have a problem if the government tried to make it illegal for individuals to act charitably and would consider such a measure to be anti-Christian.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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