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Thread: NYT - Trump Administration Considers a Drastic Cut in Refugees Allowed to Enter

  1. #211
    tWebber
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    Midnight is my cutoff for sticking around so I'll just sidetrack a moment and note that Acting Commissioner Mark Morgan acknowledged today that Trump's "Remain in Mexico" policy -- where asylum-seeking families are stopped at the border, processed, and then turned back into Mexcio without support -- is continuing to result in kidnappings and abuse.

    We could have welcomed those families into safety and provided something better.

    Source: Trump's Remain in Mexico' Policy Exposes Migrants to Rape, Kidnapping, and Murder in Dangerous Border Cities. Debbie Nathan. The Intercept. 2019.07.14

    The big man with a little mustache sat slumped in his chair at an immigrant aid office in Ciudad Juárez. The Mexican city sits a block and a half from El Paso, Texas, across the shallow trickle of the Rio Grande. But proximity to the U.S. meant nothing in his case; the office might as well have been on another continent. The man was sobbing. “Soy un muerto. Un muerto vivo,” he kept saying. “I’m a dead man. The walking dead.”

    The man, whom I will call Franklin to protect him from retaliation, said he was being pursued by assassins. Back in his home country months earlier, covered from head to toe to conceal his identity, he had given testimony against cartel bosses who had extorted his and his common-law wife’s businesses. The extortionists were convicted and imprisoned, but the witness’s disguise had fooled no one. Post-trial, two of the bosses’ armed underlings pursued Franklin, first in his home country in Central America. Then, after he fled, they threatened his niece back home with death if she did not say where he had gone. “Juárez, Mexico,” the terrified woman told the hit men.

    Franklin should have been able to cross the Rio Grande to the U.S. side long ago and make his asylum claim where the thugs couldn’t get him. Last year, he could have done so. He could have walked over an international bridge to a port of entry in El Paso, and Customs and Border Protection agents would have sent him to a detention center administered by Immigration and Customs Enforcement. There, an asylum officer would have interviewed him about his fears. He almost certainly would have passed the interview and been released on bond to join friends or family in the interior. He would have gotten a lawyer and begun gathering evidence to show an immigration judge why he needed safety in America.


    But Franklin had arrived too late. By the time he got to the border in March, the Trump administration had months earlier enacted a policy at southern border bridges called “metering.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    I'll never know exactly what to say about this era of American life but it will always include dark words and laments.

    --Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"


  2. Amen oxmixmudd amen'd this post.
  3. #212
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Your argument was that Egypt and Judea were under the same "governmental system". That either means

    1) The Roman Empire
    2) The Roman Empire's "controlled areas"
    3) The same government operating under supervision of the Roman Empire

    None serve the argument you try to make. Herod, the king, didn't have reach into Egypt, which is why Joseph and Mary fled there. It was not the "same governmental system". So you must mean something else.

    There's only one party in America today arguing that refugee resettlement should be zeroed out and that asylum seekers should be "sent back" without even a trial.

    --Sam
    Governor Ivey can't sign legislation into law in any state but Alabama, but Alabama is still part of the US.

    Jurisdiction - not just for breakfast.

  4. Amen Bill the Cat, One Bad Pig amen'd this post.
  5. #213
    God, family, chicken! Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Midnight is my cutoff for sticking around so I'll just sidetrack a moment and note that Acting Commissioner Mark Morgan acknowledged today that Trump's "Remain in Mexico" policy -- where asylum-seeking families are stopped at the border, processed, and then turned back into Mexcio without support -- is continuing to result in kidnappings and abuse.

    We could have welcomed those families into safety and provided something better.

    Source: Trump's Remain in Mexico' Policy Exposes Migrants to Rape, Kidnapping, and Murder in Dangerous Border Cities. Debbie Nathan. The Intercept. 2019.07.14

    The big man with a little mustache sat slumped in his chair at an immigrant aid office in Ciudad Juárez. The Mexican city sits a block and a half from El Paso, Texas, across the shallow trickle of the Rio Grande. But proximity to the U.S. meant nothing in his case; the office might as well have been on another continent. The man was sobbing. “Soy un muerto. Un muerto vivo,” he kept saying. “I’m a dead man. The walking dead.”

    The man, whom I will call Franklin to protect him from retaliation, said he was being pursued by assassins. Back in his home country months earlier, covered from head to toe to conceal his identity, he had given testimony against cartel bosses who had extorted his and his common-law wife’s businesses. The extortionists were convicted and imprisoned, but the witness’s disguise had fooled no one. Post-trial, two of the bosses’ armed underlings pursued Franklin, first in his home country in Central America. Then, after he fled, they threatened his niece back home with death if she did not say where he had gone. “Juárez, Mexico,” the terrified woman told the hit men.

    Franklin should have been able to cross the Rio Grande to the U.S. side long ago and make his asylum claim where the thugs couldn’t get him. Last year, he could have done so. He could have walked over an international bridge to a port of entry in El Paso, and Customs and Border Protection agents would have sent him to a detention center administered by Immigration and Customs Enforcement. There, an asylum officer would have interviewed him about his fears. He almost certainly would have passed the interview and been released on bond to join friends or family in the interior. He would have gotten a lawyer and begun gathering evidence to show an immigration judge why he needed safety in America.


    But Franklin had arrived too late. By the time he got to the border in March, the Trump administration had months earlier enacted a policy at southern border bridges called “metering.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    I'll never know exactly what to say about this era of American life but it will always include dark words and laments.

    --Sam
    This is called emotional blackmail, Sam, and it is a pathetic way to prove a point.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  6. Amen Mountain Man, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  7. #214
    God, family, chicken! Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    We clearly have a disconnect going on if your moral and ethical standard tries to fine-tune a difference between Trump routinely calling for a Muslim ban vs. trying to implement, to the best of his ability, a travel ban he repeatedly equated to his Muslim ban.
    You have no interest in reality where campaign promises are made and policy decisions are honed. Or do I really need to bring up "If you like your doctor, you can keep him"?

    I fear we have nothing at all that can be discussed further because you're simply not operating within the realm of reality, let alone seriousness.
    I'm DEAD serious. Your claim of Trump implementing a Muslim ban is crap. And the SCOTUS agreed. THAT is reality, Sammy. And it's you who needs to join me there.

    I'll wrap up my interest in this thread by saying again that we need to remember the stranger, the alien, the refugee. Christ has dark words for those who neglect them -- individuals and nations alike.
    No He doesn't. He gives no instruction for how non-Israel governments are to treat foreigners.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  8. Amen Mountain Man, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  9. #215
    God, family, chicken! Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    The verse in deuteronomy in the OP has broad, general application. It's opening sentiment is echoed and amplified by other sections of the OT, and by jesus in the new. Further, the verse begins with a command to circumcise the heart (not be like the world) and not to be stiff necked or harden ones heart (an appeal to compassion and mercy) followed by a GENERAL discussion of God's attitude towards the poor and destitute (which is therefore eternal and unchanging ) and from which then is DERIVED the specific application for that time and place.
    No it isn't. God's specific commands were for His chosen people. Nowhere is it stated that Gentile nations must follow Torah, and the commands within. Gentile nations were punished for their treatment of Israel, not each other.

    So the first part applies to ALL who would reject, abuse, or otherwise cut oft the poor and the destitute.period. for all time. For all peoples.
    Not for unbelievers. Or secular nations. Only for the Israel of God. And we as a Holy Nation are NOT to force secular nations to comply with our values and moral commands.

    Indeed, Gods judgement on a nation, any nation, is often presented as being based on its rejection of His principles and statutes.
    No. It is predicated on their treatment of Israel in the OT, and on Jesus Himself in the NT.

    So, if our government takes on an attitude so abhorent to God as regards the poor and the destitute, then we can expect God's judgement on us eventually.
    But, again, we can't force them into compliance.

    Indeed, this has often been the warning from conservatives wrt same sex marriage for quite some time. But the reality is God's abhorrence of the abuse of the poor is the subject of many parables of God's judgement from Jesus - far more so than any sexual sin - And I would think that aoone would cause us to reject Trumps thinking on these issues.
    And, I believe we do. But, that's a personal issue, not a national one. We can both disagree with Trump's approach to immigration and refugees, and still acknowledge his power to decide for the nation.


    Indeed, he's already pushing back on homeless and destitute bahamians seeking refuge in the US. The man is begging for God's judgement on our nation.


    Jim
    That's pretty sad. But, again, as the leader of this secular nation, he has every right to do so. And quoting verses against him as if they held LEGAL weight in a secular nation is plain ignorance.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  10. #216
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Midnight is my cutoff for sticking around...
    As the saying goes, Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you.

    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  11. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  12. #217
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    No it isn't. God's specific commands were for His chosen people. Nowhere is it stated that Gentile nations must follow Torah, and the commands within. Gentile nations were punished for their treatment of Israel, not each other.
    Now where did that concept of absolute morality run off to ...

    But more importantly, you realize you can't and haven't challenged what I said AT all in this statement. The preamble to the command is talking about HOW GOD SEES THE POOR.

    That has never changed, and it applies just as much to us today as it did to them yesterday.


    Not for unbelievers. Or secular nations. Only for the Israel of God. And we as a Holy Nation are NOT to force secular nations to comply with our values and moral commands.
    Who said anything about forcing a secular nation to comply? I am talking about what is right and wrong, and what WE (Christians) can support. What we can support is that which is consistent with what God has declared to be good, and what WE have to stand against is what God has declared to be wrong, or evil. So what trump is doing is wrong. And not only is it wrong from a Christian perspective, it's wrong from a humanitarian perspective. So we should have no part in it. Period.

    Further, since this is a democratic republic, when we vote, and when we campaign, and when we write letters to our senators and congressman, we should make the case for what is good and right, and we should object to what is wrong. And if we can, we should influence our secular nation to align itself with what is right. That is part of what being the 'Salt of the Earth' is about.

    That is really all there is to it.


    No. It is predicated on their treatment of Israel in the OT, and on Jesus Himself in the NT.
    Even supposing you are correct, it doesn't help, because "If you've done it to the least of these, you've done it to me"




    But, again, we can't force them into compliance.
    Who's talking about forcing someone into compliance? Must be you, because it certainly is not me. I'm talking about what we as Christians should support, and what we should speak out against.


    And, I believe we do. But, that's a personal issue, not a national one. We can both disagree with Trump's approach to immigration and refugees, and still acknowledge his power to decide for the nation.
    I'm not challenging his authority to do the wrong thing. I challenging the Idea Christians should support him doing the wrong thing. And I challenging the idea that what Trump is doing isn't wrong.



    That's pretty sad. But, again, as the leader of this secular nation, he has every right to do so. And quoting verses against him as if they held LEGAL weight in a secular nation is plain ignorance.
    Yikes! NOT WITH THE BLESSING OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH IN AMERICA HE DOESN'T.

    And that is my point.


    Jim
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-10-2019 at 12:46 PM.
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  13. Amen Charles amen'd this post.
  14. #218
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    So Jim, you want us as Christians to vote to dissolve our borders and accept everyone who wants to come into our country? After all that is how it worked for the Israelites, right? Just let foreigners come and go with no restrictions?

  15. #219
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    This is called emotional blackmail, Sam, and it is a pathetic way to prove a point.
    No - it's an attempt to help you see what you are voting for. What you are supporting. What you are arguing for is a policy that cuts off real people who have done nothing wrong, in this case who have done everything right, from the safety they would legally have been able to find in our borders prior to its implementation. What Trump is doing in this case is wrong. Period. And we as Christians have a responsibility to make sure WE come down on the side of this that Christ himself would be supporting. We are His ambassadors to this world. Let's make sure to the best of our ability anyone that rejects Him does so because of who He is, not because of how we misrepresented Him.

    Tru
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  16. #220
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    So Jim, you want us as Christians to vote to dissolve our borders and accept everyone who wants to come into our country? After all that is how it worked for the Israelites, right? Just let foreigners come and go with no restrictions?
    No - that would be a gross distortion of what I have said. This thread is about cutting off refugees Sparko. There is a very, very large gap between the cruelty and coldheartedness of cutting off people fleeing for their lives and dissolving our borders.

    Is there a reason you did not think of that before you made this post?


    Jim
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  17. Amen Charles amen'd this post.

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