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Thread: NYT - Trump Administration Considers a Drastic Cut in Refugees Allowed to Enter

  1. #61
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    It would be difficult to point to region with high refugee rates that the US didn't have a hand in destabilizing. The Syrian refugee crisis, for instance, probably would not happened without the Iraq War.

    --Sam
    Along those lines, it should go without saying that it's unconscionable for the US to be deporting members of Michigan's Chaldean Christian community to Iraq.
    "Technology has, in an enhanced way, given mockers a platform to set society on fire with polarizing speech. Internet culture privileges those whose insults are click bait." - Timothy Keller

  2. Amen Teallaura, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  3. #62
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    So you want to pick and choose your moral laws from the OT?

    What about the passages where God has the Israelites kill every alien man, woman and child and take their land and possessions? That seems pretty parallel with the verses you are quoting about welcoming aliens. Why don't we just invade Mexico and take everything after killing them all? That sounds biblical and it is talking about aliens and alien lands.
    Sparko - these worlds border on blasphemy. I think you need to pull it back a bit - we will give an account of our words. There is no theological basis for equating God's general commands to care for the poor, the stranger etc and specific commands associated with the establishment of the state of Israel, commands that are at best difficult to understand in ANY context - let alone a perverse gneralization of violence against any nation NOT the US.

    The Bible tells us that religious people who neglect the poor, especially for some self-righteous dogma, will be judged harshly. What did Jesus say to those that claimed to know him, that thought they deserved to be with Him, but ignored the poor, those in prison, etc? And then he turns it on its head and talks to people that DON'T think they deserve to be with Him and bases his acceptance of them on when the DID care for the poor, those in prison etc.

    And these are not Paul's worlds Sparko, these are not OT words either - these are Jesus' words telling us how we should live and how we should react to those around us that are poor or suffering.


    Jim
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  4. #63
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    But I don't think people use the term "charity" in that way, referring to relatives or close kin. What Ester is talking about seems along the lines of "We should take care of our homeless veterans before spending money on illegal aliens". It's a false dichotomy, in any sense, but the charity in question is referring to citizens and residents, not kin.

    --Sam
    I think we can deduce a broader principle that we are foremost responsible for those directly within our sphere of influence, though other forms of help are not thereby ruled out (such as Paul's appeals to help the struggling Macedonians). I agree it is a false dichotomy, and that proposing it admits an existing failure to help, say, homeless veterans. Nonetheless, the US safety net could be broader, but cannot be stretched indefinitely, so prioritizing the former as a sort of triage is not inherently wrong. What is wrong is nobody caring about helping homeless veterans until they see the opportunity to use them as ammunition in this debate.
    "Technology has, in an enhanced way, given mockers a platform to set society on fire with polarizing speech. Internet culture privileges those whose insults are click bait." - Timothy Keller

  5. #64
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    But our GOVERNMENT is not. Therefore, we can not hold them to scriptural standards on refugees.
    Neither can we support nor rejoice when that government violates God's principles, nor can we defend it doing so. In fact, since we are in a democracy and we have a voice in what our government does, we have a responsibility to speak out against policies that violate God's decrees, and to support and very much vote for policies that are consistent with God's decrees.


    Jim
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  6. #65
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Along those lines, it should go without saying that it's unconscionable for the US to be deporting members of Michigan's Chaldean Christian community to Iraq.
    Indeed. It's horrific and even worse how Iraqi and Afghani interpreter visas have been reduced to almost zero now.

    --Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"


  7. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  8. #66
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    When you understand that the US is not Israel, it clears up pretty quickly.



    Yes
    It doesn't matter. Jesus' sets a much higher standard for us in that He laid down his life for sinners, for those that hated and persecuted Him.

    Jesus tells us we are to love all mankind, and he tells us that whatever we do the 'the least of these' we do to Him. And that is also how He judges us. We are forgiven, so we MUST forgive. We are loved, and so we MUST love. We are not judged, and so we MUST NOT judge. And these commands are not out of compulsion. To do any less is to spit in the face of He who gave His life for us. We cannot demand payment from the fellow that owes us $1, because we have been forgiven trillions. And if we do, Jesus does not have good words for what will become of us.

    We simply can't join with those that want to banish those that wish to come here. Trump is on a crusade against people that come here. Each week he ratchets it up. Now it's refugees.

    Refugees - people fleeing wars and violence and famine.


    Jim
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  9. #67
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Indeed. It's horrific and even worse how Iraqi and Afghani interpreter visas have been reduced to almost zero now.

    --Sam
    I don't see anything good in the trend as it relates to Trump, his adminstration, and his war on immigration.

    It just keeps getting worse, more shrill.


    Jim
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  10. Amen Sam amen'd this post.
  11. #68
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I think we can deduce a broader principle that we are foremost responsible for those directly within our sphere of influence, though other forms of help are not thereby ruled out (such as Paul's appeals to help the struggling Macedonians). I agree it is a false dichotomy, and that proposing it admits an existing failure to help, say, homeless veterans. Nonetheless, the US safety net could be broader, but cannot be stretched indefinitely, so prioritizing the former as a sort of triage is not inherently wrong. What is wrong is nobody caring about helping homeless veterans until they see the opportunity to use them as ammunition in this debate.
    Agreed. So the question, in this circumstance, would be whether USA has the capacity to assist refugees at or above the traditional caps and whether the funds that were allocated to that are being better spent. We are not, to my knowledge, re-appropriating any money "saved" on refugee resettlement (a hard figure to calculate, since refugee resettlement spurs short-term and long-term economic growth) back toward domestic social welfare programs.

    --Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"


  12. #69
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I think I ultimately agree more with you than Sam here but this isn't a good analogy because God instructed the Israelites to kill Canaanites on specific occasions. There was no blanket rule that all foreigners had to be killed at all time, the way the Levitical laws were blanket laws.

    I do think that the US has an obligation to allow refugees from Central American countries because its military has destablilized the region in the course of unsuccessfully fighting the War on Drugs, though.
    Indeed. I sometimes wonder if that isn't why previous administration policies were much more lax: Those administrations recognized our moral responsibility to extend a helping hand to those whose misery our policies helped create.


    Jim
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  13. #70
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    It is, by White House reporting, part of a deliberate campaign promise/strategy; "immigration" will be a key 2020 election focus for the Trump campaign and that means Stephen Miller -- an anti-immigration zealot -- wields a lot of power.

    Which means that it will, by design, keep getting worse.

    --Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    I don't see anything good in the trend as it relates to Trump, his adminstration, and his war on immigration.

    It just keeps getting worse, more shrill.


    Jim
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"


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