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NYT - Trump Administration Considers a Drastic Cut in Refugees Allowed to Enter

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    I know they never expected the Spanish Inquisition!
    SpInq.gif

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      Uh, your OP.

      Ask the US atheists here if they want to be governed by the Bible and its decrees. We have to have secular reasons for the policies we feel intersect our Christian beliefs. But we can not, nor have ANY of us proposed, implementing direct Biblical decrees as law. And I challenge you to find an instance.
      I'm sorry but "show your love for the alien for you were aliens in Egypt" is not confined to a Hebrew law or decree in that sort of sense. It's a moral directive.

      This is like saying "Thou shalt not kill" is a Hebrew law that doesn't have bearing on US policy.

      --Sam
      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Sam View Post
        It, too, was part of the Roman Empire at the time and therefore fits under the "governmental difference" definition you used.

        --Sam
        There would be nothing directly analogous to that in the US today, because northern Britannia was on a (hostile) frontier.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Sam View Post
          You don't find refusing welcome to asylum-seekers and refugees -- to the point of zeroing-out refugee admissions blatantly anti-Christian?

          --Sam
          Do you really want to govern the way I feel Christians should behave???
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Moreover the translations that use the word "sojourner" in place of "alien" and "foreigner" are closer to the Hebrew. Sojourners are travelers or visitors, not folks who are planning on moving in permanently.
            The Hebrew word used is actually גֵּ֔ר (ger), which I understand was used to refer to resident aliens, rather than temporary aliens (זָרִים, zarim).

            --Sam
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • #36
              The story in the OP is severely lacking in any details.

              I found the article here. Not behind a paywall

              https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-...enter-the-u-s/

              Bunch of what ifs and maybes and references to a decades old policy but not mentioning what the policy is, or what the actual immigrant numbers are, or whether they are talking about legal immigrants or illegal.

              The whole "refugee" thing is a red herring. The "immigrants" from Central America are not "refugees" - and they don't qualify as such.

              There has always been a set number of hardship visas/green cards available. If I recall it is around 20,000/year. I will need to go find it.

              ETA:
              ====
              How many people are granted asylum?

              Nearly 20,500 individuals in FY 2016. In fiscal year (FY) 2016, the most recent year for which data are available, 20,455 individuals were granted asylum, which is about 28 percent out of the 73,081 cases. Approval rates varied by immigration court from about 10 percent to 80 percent.
              https://immigrationforum.org/article...sylum-process/


              ===
              Also here is Obama talking about it:





              ================
              And when the bible is talking about welcoming aliens, it is talking mostly on a personal level, giving them hospitality.

              If you recall, God sent the Israelites to invade alien countries and slaughter everyone there too. So maybe we should be invading Mexico and Guatemala instead?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                There would be nothing directly analogous to that in the US today, because northern Britannia was on a (hostile) frontier.
                Then you have to adjust your definition from "Roman Empire" to "places the Roman Empire had more or less under complete control". And it would still be irrelevant to the concept of Christ as a refugee. The important detail of His escape to Egypt wasn't that the Romans had things under control. It was that He and his family were in danger and desperate, and were given welcome and safety in another land.

                --Sam
                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  I'm sorry but "show your love for the alien for you were aliens in Egypt" is not confined to a Hebrew law or decree in that sort of sense. It's a moral directive.

                  This is like saying "Thou shalt not kill" is a Hebrew law that doesn't have bearing on US policy.

                  --Sam
                  It doesn't. We have our own. In the same breath as "thou shall not commit murder, there is "remember the sabbath and keep it holy". Should we have a law that declares Sunday a national day of rest and forbid everyone to work in any way? Or are you only inconsistent on that point because it serves your purpose?
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    I'm sorry but "show your love for the alien for you were aliens in Egypt" is not confined to a Hebrew law or decree in that sort of sense. It's a moral directive.

                    This is like saying "Thou shalt not kill" is a Hebrew law that doesn't have bearing on US policy.

                    --Sam
                    Again Sam, what about the moral directive to execute homosexuals or adulterers?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      Do you really want to govern the way I feel Christians should behave???
                      I would like Christians who believe that Christian principles regarding giving safety, comfort, and welcome to marginalized and desperate people carry at least as much weight as , say, who gets access to contraceptives or marriage licenses.

                      --Sam
                      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Sam View Post
                        Then you have to adjust your definition from "Roman Empire" to "places the Roman Empire had more or less under complete control". And it would still be irrelevant to the concept of Christ as a refugee. The important detail of His escape to Egypt wasn't that the Romans had things under control. It was that He and his family were in danger and desperate, and were given welcome and safety in another land.

                        --Sam
                        No, I don't. The only relevant example is Galilee and Egypt, which wasn't "another land".

                        Work with the facts at hand, Sam.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Do you find allowing homosexuals to live blatantly unbiblical?
                          I would like Sam to answer this and then explain why his biblical admonition should be followed but Seer's not?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                            It doesn't. We have our own. In the same breath as "thou shall not commit murder, there is "remember the sabbath and keep it holy". Should we have a law that declares Sunday a national day of rest and forbid everyone to work in any way? Or are you only inconsistent on that point because it serves your purpose?
                            This continues to amaze me -- I often have to explain the nature of Christ's parables to non-Christians but am aghast when they have to be explained to Christians, especially those who are vocal about their faith.

                            Did Christ Himself put equal value on the Sabbath as He did on service to the poor and vulnerable? He did not. Should we, as Christians, react against people working on the Sabbath like we should react against ending a lifeline to tens of thousands of people? I can't see anything of Christ in those saying the two are equivalent.

                            --Sam
                            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              You don't find refusing welcome to asylum-seekers and refugees -- to the point of zeroing-out refugee admissions blatantly anti-Christian?

                              --Sam
                              As government policy? No.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                I would like Sam to answer this and then explain why his biblical admonition should be followed but Seer's not?
                                My view is that Scripture turns us toward justice and the prohibitions against homosexual activity in Hebrew Scriptures are part of purity codes to separate Israelites from their pagan neighbors. I think this is reflected in Paul's writings, as well. Others disagree. I also think that the government lacks any ethical foundation to prohibit these unions outside of a strict religious code. Conversely, the call to care for and welcome vulnerable refugees needs no explicit religious law -- it is a matter of universal morality, such that no one could reasonably argue against the principle.

                                But those who disagree put themselves into a place where they cannot then turn around and shrug off the much more prevalent issue of care for the poor, the vulnerable, and the alien. It's they who have built an iron box around the Law yet want to disregard it as immaterial to their political behavior.

                                --Sam
                                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                                Comment

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