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  1. #171
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Is it possible you're reading more into this than Piper intended?
    No, I just think Piper is very squeamish about that particular subject and avoids answering the simplest thing about it. At any rate he did say what he said. He told women to "endure it for a season".

    Piper doesn't say anything about not going to the police.
    His silence on that was deafening. He received a lot of criticism on that post, and it would have been easy, trivial, for him to make a simple follow up post that explains that seeking help from authorities, is perfectly okay. Even in the article where he finally (after years of criticism, and patterns of men abusing women emerging from within his community), after making several paragraphs of handwringing finally makes that point, he still slides it in as if that's somehow a failure; That it would be better for the woman to "be able to trust her Church community". So even when he says its okay, its definitely pushed out as an edge case.

    I have little doubt that Piper would be like "drop his butt" if the issue was consistent and unrepentant abuse, or if he, say punched his wife. I don't think that's at all what Piper has in mind.
    Then why doesn't he simply say that? Do you have any articles at all where he talks openly about kicking out abusers from the community?

  2. #172
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    Well which way is going to be, are you going to start talking about it with Adrift, but refuse to talk to me about it? Anyway I won't engage in lastwordism with you on it.
    Fair enough, and I even laughed when I did the "lastwordism" because that seems to be "owned" by a particular poster who often claims it, then violates it.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  3. #173
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Why do you guys even bother responding to his initial trolls? Just skip his posts and go on. You especially seem to nibble at every one of Chuck's baits. Just stop. Answer him if he has a valid contribution to a thread, but just ignore his baiting and you will be much happier.
    Ya ever notice we kinda scold each other for responding to trolls, while responding to trolls?
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  4. #174
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    No, I just think Piper is very squeamish...
    I just think Piper likes too much being liked. He needs to sell books and articles and copy and.... I rarely see him taking a firm stand on tough issues.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  5. Amen Leonhard amen'd this post.
  6. #175
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Ya ever notice we kinda scold each other for responding to trolls, while responding to trolls?
    sigh.

  7. Amen Mountain Man amen'd this post.
  8. #176
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    sigh.
    Me, too!
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  9. #177
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    No, I just think Piper is very squeamish about that particular subject and avoids answering the simplest thing about it. At any rate he did say what he said. He told women to "endure it for a season".



    His silence on that was deafening. He received a lot of criticism on that post, and it would have been easy, trivial, for him to make a simple follow up post that explains that seeking help from authorities, is perfectly okay. Even in the article where he finally (after years of criticism, and patterns of men abusing women emerging from within his community), after making several paragraphs of handwringing finally makes that point, he still slides it in as if that's somehow a failure; That it would be better for the woman to "be able to trust her Church community". So even when he says its okay, its definitely pushed out as an edge case.



    Then why doesn't he simply say that? Do you have any articles at all where he talks openly about kicking out abusers from the community?
    I mean, I'm only going by the video you yourself posted here. I don't know anything else about this supposed controversy. The video simply didn't seem as damning as you were suggesting. I'm reading his follow-up article here, and it all seems legit: https://www.desiringgod.org/articles...-on-wife-abuse

    I don't know the context of how you yourself came across this. I'm only ever seeing this for the first time since you posted it, but you make it sound like it was big news...someplace. Did you find it on some secular or skeptic website that attempted to twist it into something that Piper didn't intend? Did you find it on a Christian website? Did you find it in a search on your own?

    See, when I listen/read Piper on this subject, what's going through my mind is the counseling approach of a pastor. My mother was a church counselor and assistant to the head pastor of a very large church, and she saw spousal conflict on a daily basis. Sometimes that conflict would lead to abuse, and in some cases it was hard to tell who was the actual victim of abuse and who was the actual abuser. Sometimes that conflict wasn't exactly abusive, but might go there. It wasn't uncommon for newlyweds to get into conflicts with one anther and seek divorce over tiffs (especially if they had been dating/living with each other for some time before marriage). She also saw clear cases of abuse that the victim themselves were completely unaware of. They thought that it was they who were at fault, and it took the church to show them that, no, this person is harming you, and you need to get out of that relationship. One of the more gut-wrenching cases I remember was a man who was abusing his own daughter. The mother simply would not believe her daughter, but my mother saw through it immediately, got the authorities involved, and worked with the prosecution in court to put the husband behind bars.

    So pastors and church counselors have to keep in mind all of these sorts of things: Is it actually abuse? What sort of abuse? When does conflict cross into abuse? Who is actually the abuser and who is the victim? Is the abuser open to correction? Did the abuser repent?

    When we think of "abuser" we think of the worse case scenario of a man beating his significant other to within an inch of their lives, or of someone who is sexually manipulating/harming someone. A pastor isn't necessarily thinking of those extreme cases. And as Pastor Piper points out, he IS distinguishing between someone who is physically violent, and someone who crosses the line occasionally in his language. It's a pastor's job to see even abusers as people who can be forgiven of their sins, repent and come back into the flock. That's a VERY hard thing for the secular world to deal with because in a lot of cases in the secular world, once you've crossed a line, that's it. There is no forgiveness. There is no second chance.
    Last edited by Adrift; 09-11-2019 at 10:43 AM.

  10. #178
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    I mean, I'm only going by the video you yourself posted here. I don't know anything else about this supposed controversy. The video simply didn't seem as damning as you were suggesting. I'm reading his follow-up article here, and it all seems legit: https://www.desiringgod.org/articles...-on-wife-abuse

    I don't know the context of how you yourself came across this. I'm only ever seeing this for the first time since you posted it, but you make it sound like it was big news...someplace. Did you find it on some secular or skeptic website that attempted to twist it into something that Piper didn't intend? Did you find it on a Christian website? Did you find it in a search on your own?

    See, when I listen/read Piper on this subject, what's going through my mind is the counseling approach of a pastor. My mother was a church counselor and assistant to the head pastor, and she saw spousal conflict on a daily basis. Sometimes that conflict would lead to abuse, and in some cases it was hard to tell who was the actual victim of abuse and who was the actual abuser. Sometimes that conflict wasn't exactly abusive, but might go there. It wasn't uncommon for newlyweds to get into conflicts with one anther and seek divorce over tiffs (especially if they had been dating/living with each other for some time before marriage). She also saw clear cases of abuse that the victim themselves were completely unaware of. They thought that it was they who were at fault, and it took the church to show them that, no, this person is harming you, and you need to get out of that relationship. One of the more gut-wrenching cases I remember was when a man who was abusing his own daughter. The mother simply would not believe her daughter, but my mother saw through it immediately, got the authorities involved, and worked with the prosecution in court to put the husband behind bars.

    So pastors and church counselors have to keep in mind all of these sorts of things: Is it actually abuse? What sort of abuse? When does conflict cross into abuse? Who is actually the abuser and who is the victim? Is the abuser open to correction? Did the abuser repent?

    When we think of "abuser" we think of the worse case scenario of a man beating his significant other to within an inch of their lives, or of someone who is sexually manipulating/harming someone. A pastor isn't necessarily thinking of those extreme cases. And as Pastor Piper points out, he IS distinguishing between someone who is physically violent, and someone who crosses the line occasionally in his language. It's a pastor's job to see even abusers as people who can be forgiven of their sins, repent and come back into the flock. That's a VERY hard thing for the secular world to deal with because in a lot of cases in the secular world, once you've crossed a line, that's it. There is no forgiveness. There is no second chance.
    Yeah I also saw this as Piper advising Christian counseling but not in place of going to the police. Usually Christian counselors or pastors will send them to the police or call the police for them if a crime as been committed or is going on.

    At least in every Christian church I know of. Unlike some cults like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who have been reported to basically ignore child and spouse abuse and refuse their members from going to the police.

  11. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
  12. #179
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    The "big name" I most hear associated with the practice of not calling the police is James Dobson. In his 1983 book, he gave extensive advice to battered women in one chapter. They included talk about how beaten women often are asking for it from their actions... but there is not a single word in the chapter about calling the police.

    After decades of bad publicity, he and his organization finally do respond to questioners by encouraging to call the police, but the damage was done.

    At the same time, I sort of get where the idea comes in based on Paul's instructions for Christians to solve their problems themselves. However I think the context of what Paul meant was not violent situations that needed immediate intervention from the police.
    "Technology has, in an enhanced way, given mockers a platform to set society on fire with polarizing speech. Internet culture privileges those whose insults are click bait." - Timothy Keller

  13. #180
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Did you find it on some secular or skeptic website that attempted to twist it into something that Piper didn't intend?
    That's a rather antagonistic approach to take towards non-Christian sources, some of the sources though that I remember were Christian. Long before I was a Christian I was a feminist, and I still keep in touch with the community, and there are a lot of Christian feminist circles talking about certain problems arising within the Christian communities who are heavy on complementarianism.

    I didn't read it on Skeptics Bible Guide, or Fedora-Wearing-Atheist-Man-Dudes-Personal-Blog or some Reddit thread bashing Christianity if that's what you think.

    See, when I listen/read Piper on this subject, what's going through my mind is the counseling approach of a pastor. My mother was a church counselor and assistant to the head pastor of a very large church, and she saw spousal conflict on a daily basis. Sometimes that conflict would lead to abuse, and in some cases it was hard to tell who was the actual victim of abuse and who was the actual abuser. Sometimes that conflict wasn't exactly abusive, but might go there. It wasn't uncommon for newlyweds to get into conflicts with one anther and seek divorce over tiffs (especially if they had been dating/living with each other for some time before marriage). She also saw clear cases of abuse that the victim themselves were completely unaware of. They thought that it was they who were at fault, and it took the church to show them that, no, this person is harming you, and you need to get out of that relationship. One of the more gut-wrenching cases I remember was a man who was abusing his own daughter. The mother simply would not believe her daughter, but my mother saw through it immediately, got the authorities involved, and worked with the prosecution in court to put the husband behind bars.
    That's all very well and good, and I have no doubt that in most cases it works out healthily. That does not remove the problems though, nor the fact that a highly popular evangelical Christian told women to "endure the abuse for a season", and was given thousands of opportunities to clarify, and chose not to, only surfacing to post one, lone, article saying that "It is okay for women to seek help from authorities" and then only after drowning it in a 1001 clarifications and pushing it out as a wrong corner case.

    Why didn't he simply say that its okay to seek help from the authorities?

    Remember though all of this was in the context of religious communities having internal religious courts. Defacto this is what this is. Don't take the abuse case to the authorities, take it to the local court of Elders, and they'll decide if the authorities get involved or if its handled "internally".

    So pastors and church counselors have to keep in mind all of these sorts of things: Is it actually abuse? What sort of abuse? When does conflict cross into abuse? Who is actually the abuser and who is the victim? Is the abuser open to correction? Did the abuser repent?
    I have no idea what to advice a person like that. One thing I would never advice anyone is to "endure it for a season".

    When we think of "abuser" we think of the worse case scenario of a man beating his significant other to within an inch of their lives, or of someone who is sexually manipulating/harming someone.
    It turned out that there were quite a few instances of that going on in the Assemblies of God congregations that John Piper headed. And they had all been protected by the communites, rather than the communities protecting the women.

    And as Pastor Piper points out, he IS distinguishing between someone who is physically violent, and someone who crosses the line occasionally in his language.
    The "endure it for a season", also applied to women who were experiencing physical abuse. Honestly though he spends far more time talking about a highly imaginary case of a woman being tempted into group sex by her husband (2/3s of the video), than about the more realistic and problematic cases.

    It's a pastor's job to see even abusers as people who can be forgiven of their sins, repent and come back into the flock.
    A person can come back to the flock, but rights and privileges cannot be restored. If someone has beat his wife, she doesn't, neither for his sake, nor for Christs, owe him a second chance.

    The Christian community has only one responsibility there, backing her up, and if need be ensure that he doesn't corner her alone.
    Last edited by Leonhard; 09-11-2019 at 11:28 AM.

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