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Thread: Universalism

  1. #31
    tWebber Quantum Weirdness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Universalists are very good at philosophy, mainly because they are very bad at scripture interpretation. There are some verses and concepts you can take out of context to make an argument for universalism, but Jesus made perfectly clear that some will not be saved. Also note Hebrews 3:11: "They will never enter my rest."

    I don't think there's anything wrong with hoping everybody will be saved, because 2 Peter 3:9 says the same thing. But when you outright say that it will happen, it becomes a problem.
    They may not be saved but perhaps they could be somewhere that is not Heaven after their punishment has passed (assuming, of course, that their interpretations of αἰώνιος and αἰών hold).
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
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    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
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  2. #32
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Universalism is a lazy man's excuse to ignore the Great Commission.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  3. Amen Sparko, Faber amen'd this post.
  4. #33
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Wesley was not a universalist.
    Then how on earth can my Methodist church teach it???

  5. #34
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Then how on earth can my Methodist church teach it???
    Just because the Methodists didn't start out that way doesn't mean they haven't strayed from their roots.

    My Dad was saved while attending the United Church of Canada, once a Bible believing evangelical organization. It now is a travesty of what it used to be because it accepts every popular idea the culture throws at us and has even changed their hymnal to include hymns to "mother" God.

    Any church, without standing on the firm foundation of God's word, will stray into heresy and tolerance of sin.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

  6. #35
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Then how on earth can my Methodist church teach it???
    Many mainline churches have gone to "mass appeal" - watering down their beliefs to lure in the masses. Interestingly enough, those denominations are the ones that continue to die out, and those that stand firm on the Word of God are growing or holding their own.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  7. Amen mossrose amen'd this post.
  8. #36
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    They may not be saved but perhaps they could be somewhere that is not Heaven after their punishment has passed (assuming, of course, that their interpretations of αἰώνιος and αἰών hold).
    This is just speculation with no basis in Scripture.
    "Technology has, in an enhanced way, given mockers a platform to set society on fire with polarizing speech. Internet culture privileges those whose insults are click bait." - Timothy Keller

  9. Amen mossrose, Cow Poke, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  10. #37
    tWebber Quantum Weirdness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    This is just speculation with no basis in Scripture.
    True*. But is it against Scripture?

    EDIT:
    *- It may have a basis in that the bible describes the nature of God, but since Scripture does not explicitly say it, I'll agree for sake of discussion.
    Last edited by Quantum Weirdness; 09-11-2019 at 01:50 PM.
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
    Sir James Jeans

    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
    Sir Isaac Newton

  11. #38
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    True*. But is it against Scripture?

    EDIT:
    *- It may have a basis in that the bible describes the nature of God, but since Scripture does not explicitly say it, I'll agree for sake of discussion.
    I would argue it is. Consider the contrast of eternal punishment and eternal life in Matthew 25. This doesn't seem to leave room for somebody who stays alive forever, not in a state of punishment, but in a state of limbo (to use an example from folk theology, which contrary to proper belief was never actually adopted as an official view of the Catholic Church). You could argue that this is a form of "eternal life", but this clearly goes against how Scripture otherwise uses the phrase "eternal life".

    As far as arguing from the nature of God - this is one of the most common arguments for universalism, and there's a major problem. People who conclude that the nature of God as revealed in Scripture could not permit eternal conscious torment jump right from there to universalism, but that completely ignores the possibility of annihilationism (which has much more of a biblical case than universalism), as well as some of the "low quality of life" eternal conscious punishment views like those of Glenn Miller, Alexander Pruss, and C.S. Lewis.
    Last edited by KingsGambit; 09-11-2019 at 03:09 PM.
    "Technology has, in an enhanced way, given mockers a platform to set society on fire with polarizing speech. Internet culture privileges those whose insults are click bait." - Timothy Keller

  12. #39
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Is there any biblical support for Universalism?
    I believe there is reason to hope that all will repent, from Scripture. For example, when God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), is it his purpose that all repent? And if so, will his word not accomplish his purpose (Isa. 55:10-11)?

    I am a "soft universalist", I see reason to hope that all will repent, yet I'm unwilling to state categorically that all will repent. I believe eternity will be unlike anyone expects, with annihilationism true, and eternal punishment true, and God all in all.

    I'm asking because a deacon of my church will be teaching Rob Bell's book, "Love Wins" in an upcoming Bible study.
    Well, I'm not a fan of Rob Bell, he seems to have strayed from the text.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  13. #40
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    I'm trying to find out what the founder of the Methodist church, John Wesley, said about Universalim. But my research keeps coming up talking about John Wesley Hanson.
    I'm having trouble finding anything directly by Wesley. I find pages claiming he was not a universalist, I find pages claiming he became a universalist late in life. I find links to a scholarly book by James Ellison that is entirely devoted to the topic of John Wesley and Universalism. The summaries and teases suggest he was at least inclined in the direction of universalism.
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