Universalism

[lee_merrill]

Lee, are you arguing the case for universalism because you believe that is what scripture teaches?

I believe Scripture gives us reason to hope that all will repent.

Do you believe that all will be saved regardless of their lack of unbelief while alive, that all will be given a second chance to accept Christ as Saviour?

I'm not sure how it might work out, I see three threads in Scripture, eternal punishment, annihilation of the wicked, and God all in all.

Satan and his angels will be sent to the lake of fire forever because they rebelled against God. Unbelievers also rebel against God and Jesus said in John 8 that they are of their father the devil. Same crime, same punishment. And no description of hell in scripture indicates that time spent in hell is a remedial experience or remedial justice.

Yet the eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, not for people. So if people somehow don't belong there, may we hope they won't stay there?

God's very nature, as a holy and just God, manifests itself in punishment of sin. If He does not punish sin, then He is not holy nor just.

Yes, agreed. However, note that the Lord will restore Sodom (Eze. 16:53), which must mean former inhabitants there, which gives me reason to hope for those who are "an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 7).

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

maybe you should become a Catholic since they believe in purgatory?

Though I have Calvinist leanings, not Molinist. I don't seem to fit in well in any doctrinal scheme!

Blessings,
Lee

[Christian3]

Yet the eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, not for people. So if people somehow don't belong there, may we hope they won't stay there?

[b][b][b]

[KingsGambit]

maybe you should become a Catholic since they believe in purgatory?

My favorite Protestant writer (John Stackhouse) believes in purgatory. I happen to think he's wrong on this one though.

[Cow Poke]

My favorite Protestant writer (John Stackhouse) believes in purgatory. I happen to think he's wrong on this one though.

Does he portend to give any scriptural evidence?

[KingsGambit]

Does he portend to give any scriptural evidence?

Yes. His biggest piece of scriptural evidence was 1 Corinthians 3:15, and he focused on that there is no reason to think that this purification process happens instantly. He was careful to distinguish his view from the Catholic view that it was needed to actually satisfy the payment for sins, because that is totally against the Protestant view of how God justifies us.

(Again, I don't agree with it but I didn't see it as "unorthodox".)

[Cow Poke]

Yes. His biggest piece of scriptural evidence was 1 Corinthians 3:15, and he focused on that there is no reason to think that this purification process happens instantly. He was careful to distinguish his view from the Catholic view that it was needed to actually satisfy the payment for sins, because that is totally against the Protestant view of how God justifies us.

(Again, I don't agree with it but I didn't see it as "unorthodox".)

Interesting. Thanks

[lee_merrill]

The eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, so It wasn't prepared at least initially, for people.

Blessings,
Lee

[Christian3]

The eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, so It wasn't prepared at least initially, for people.

Blessings,
Lee

That is not what the Scriptures I cited say.

[lee_merrill]

That is not what the Scriptures I cited say.

Well, one verse is not erased by other verses, we have to take them all together, and combine what they say.

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

Well, one verse is not erased by other verses, we have to take them all together, and combine what they say.

Blessings,
Lee

Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.Then they will go away to eternal punishment

[mossrose]

Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.Then they will go away to eternal punishment

I gave the same explanation of that passage earlier in this thread, but Lee either didn't see it or he ignored it. I even said that the same word for "eternal" in the original text was used in both cases.

[lee_merrill]

If you actually read beyond your cherry-picked verse in Matthew 25 where he says the eternal fire was prepared for the devil, he says those on his left will be cast into that fire and suffer ETERNAL Punishment.

I agree, yet there still seems to be a glimmer of hope even here, with hell being prepared for others. Let us also remember that Sodom will be restored, the very example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire (Jude 7).

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

I agree, yet there still seems to be a glimmer of hope even here, with hell being prepared for others. Let us also remember that Sodom will be restored, the very example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire (Jude 7).

Blessings,
Lee

You are just ignoring scripture for your own feelings about something. That is a dangerous theology Lee. It is how many a person has gotten off of the righteous path. I made a determination long ago when I was a young Christian who found many things in the bible that I didn't like, that when my wishes and feelings contradicted what the bible said, I would go with the bible instead of my self-centered wishes.

You need to stop "hoping" and believe what the bible is telling you. Not digging through the bible finding bits and pieces that reinforce your preconceptions. That is called EISOGESIS, reading INTO the text instead of EXOGESES, taking meaning from the text.

[lee_merrill]

You are just ignoring scripture for your own feelings about something.

I'm quoting Scripture, actually! You all are the ones ignoring the Scriptures that I present, you are not addressing the points that I make. And I agree that there is a case to be made for eternal punishment, as there is a valid Scriptural case to be made for annihilationism, as there is a case for God all in all.

I believe that eternity will be surprising! All these threads being true, as in the cross, which no one expected, and even seemingly contradictory, with perfect love and perfect justice expressed.

Blessings,
Lee