Universalism

[lee_merrill]

Lee, you're sounding like Joseph Smith who, when his brother died without being baptized, decided there needed to be baptism by proxy.

Well, we may consider verses such as we read here:

MT 11:21 "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes."

Would God see that repentance would have happened, and not arrange in the future for it to really happen?

MK 4:11-12 "Those who are outside get everything in parables, in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and be forgiven."

These people would apparently have repented if the parables had been explained to them, and similarly here:

Ezekiel 3:6 Surely if I had sent you to them, they would have listened to you.

So again, will God see that they would have repented, and then simply leave them, and not seek to save what was lost?

Blessings,
Lee

[mossrose]

So there would need to be hope for repentance after death.

For example, "What about those who have never heard the gospel?" Even J.I. Packer has indicated that they may have a chance to hear and believe, after dying.


Well, not if everyone may repent.

Blessings,
Lee

Hebrews 9:27-28

27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

This is pretty clear to me that after someone dies, there is NO hope of repentance.

And as for your comment about those who haven't heard the gospel, all will be judged by the light they have been given. They won't be judged on what they don't know, but on what they do know.

Romans 2:12-16

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Romans 1 and 2 say that no one has an excuse to not believe in the God of scripture and His salvation.

[NorrinRadd]

Yep. although there are some independent baptist churches that you can't be sure of what they are teaching unless you check them out. My mom's baptist church is OK, but it is KJV Only and the preacher is the type that starts breathing funny and gets red faced as he "gets the holy spirit" going. I usually couldn't follow him at all when the started his strutting chicken walk with his gospel yelling.

GLOW-ruh be ta GAWD!!!!

[NorrinRadd]

So there would need to be hope for repentance after death.

For example, "What about those who have never heard the gospel?" Even J.I. Packer has indicated that they may have a chance to hear and believe, after dying.


Well, not if everyone may repent.

Blessings,
Lee

You've been given the answers to these hopeful maybes. I now ask what is the specific Scriptural basis for believing the lost may become found post mortem. For instance, what proof-text does Packer adduce to support the idea that "they may have a chance..."?

[lee_merrill]

Hebrews 9:27-28

This is pretty clear to me that after someone dies, there is NO hope of repentance.

Well, there is judgment, though it doesn't say directly whether there is hope of repentance.

Romans 1 and 2 say that no one has an excuse to not believe in the God of scripture and His salvation.

Good point, I cede the point. But then what about those God says would have repented if things had been different (see above)?

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

You've been given the answers to these hopeful maybes. I now ask what is the specific Scriptural basis for believing the lost may become found post mortem.

[mossrose]

But then what about those God says would have repented if things had been different (see above)?

I trust that God is omniscient and knows everything that has happened and what will happen. I believe that God knows who will believe and who will not.

Perhaps the message the Lord gave to Chorazin and Bethsaida were indicating degrees of punishment, theirs worse than Tyre and Sidon. Only God in His sovereignty knows who will repent and be forgiven.

Ezekiel 3:6 in the NASB says:

But I have sent you to them who should listen to you;

indicating to me that God knew who would and who would not repent.

The passage in Mark is indicating that the mystery of the parables, the kingdom of heaven, is revealed to those who believe, while it remains hidden from those who reject Christ and His gospel. The unbelieving do not want to repent. Their rejection of Christ will seal their fate.

None of the passages you mentioned are indicative of any chance of repentance following death.

[Cow Poke]

Well, there is judgment, though it doesn't say directly whether there is hope of repentance.

That's a pretty critical piece of information to leave out.

[Terraceth]

I think you are right on this your comment. Why preach the gospel if God will accept you without it?

Universalists--at least in my experience--generally believe in some kind of temporary punishment for sins if they're bad enough, with it being lengthier/harsher the worse someone was. So the purpose of preaching would be to spare people that.

AND, doesn't universalism do harm to Jesus' sacrifice? If everyone is saved then why did Jesus have to die?

I don't follow the logic here. Under universalism, Jesus died to save everyone. In other words, universalism wouldn't have been possible without Jesus's sacrifice. I do not see how that does harm to it or brings up the question of why Jesus had to die when Jesus's death is kind of the reason universalism is true--at least according to my understanding of Christian universalists.

[Terraceth]

Yep. although there are some independent baptist churches that you can't be sure of what they are teaching unless you check them out. My mom's baptist church is OK, but it is KJV Only and the preacher is the type that starts breathing funny and gets red faced as he "gets the holy spirit" going. I usually couldn't follow him at all when the started his strutting chicken walk with his gospel yelling.

In my experience, "OK" and "KJV Only" tend to be contradictory, unless you're using a more moderate idea of "KJV Only" than I'm used to. Are we talking about a mere preference for the KJV, or the idea that all the other English translations are corrupted and that only the KJV is reliable?

[lee_merrill]

I trust that God is omniscient and knows everything that has happened and what will happen. I believe that God knows who will believe and who will not.

Perhaps the message the Lord gave to Chorazin and Bethsaida were indicating degrees of punishment, theirs worse than Tyre and Sidon. Only God in His sovereignty knows who will repent and be forgiven.

Yes, and he said Tyre and Sidon would have repented!

Ezekiel 3:6 in the NASB says:

But I have sent you to them who should listen to you;

indicating to me that God knew who would and who would not repent.

Alrighty, yes.

MK 4:11-12 "Those who are outside get everything in parables, in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and be forgiven."

The passage in Mark is indicating that the mystery of the parables, the kingdom of heaven, is revealed to those who believe, while it remains hidden from those who reject Christ and His gospel. The unbelieving do not want to repent. Their rejection of Christ will seal their fate.

[mossrose]

Lee, are you arguing the case for universalism because you believe that is what scripture teaches? Do you believe that all will be saved regardless of their lack of unbelief while alive, that all will be given a second chance to accept Christ as Saviour?

[mossrose]

Hebrews 10

Matthew 25

eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life

The word in the original for "eternal" here is exactly the same word in both instances. If you get rid of an eternal punishment for those who reject Christ, then you also have to get rid of an eternal heaven, and you are calling Jesus a liar.

Satan and his angels will be sent to the lake of fire forever because they rebelled against God. Unbelievers also rebel against God and Jesus said in John 8 that they are of their father the devil. Same crime, same punishment. And no description of hell in scripture indicates that time spent in hell is a remedial experience or remedial justice.

Jude

5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

God's very nature, as a holy and just God, manifests itself in punishment of sin. If He does not punish sin, then He is not holy nor just.

Isaiah 66

14 Then you will see this, and your heart will be glad,
And your bones will flourish like the new grass;
And the hand of the Lord will be made known to His servants,
But He will be indignant toward His enemies.
15
For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16
For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.

[Sparko]

So there would need to be hope for repentance after death.

For example, "What about those who have never heard the gospel?" Even J.I. Packer has indicated that they may have a chance to hear and believe, after dying.


Well, not if everyone may repent.

Blessings,
Lee

maybe you should become a Catholic since they believe in purgatory?

[Sparko]

In my experience, "OK" and "KJV Only" tend to be contradictory, unless you're using a more moderate idea of "KJV Only" than I'm used to. Are we talking about a mere preference for the KJV, or the idea that all the other English translations are corrupted and that only the KJV is reliable?

A church can believe that only the King James version is accurate and still be orthodox in their doctrines.