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Thread: Never Forget...

  1. #81
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    That is one of the verses abrogated by the forced conversion verses. It is a practice called naskh ("abrogation") where later revelations supersede or nullify earlier once that they contradict. ... -- and nearly all Muslim scholars agree that the Surah Bara'ah (the ninth) was the very last surah in the Qur'an that was revealed (although a few say it was al-Nasr or surah 110)
    This doctrine can only be applied when you know which Surah abrogates what. Its the same in the Bible, except as it's laid out in chronological order (except for some of the Old Testament), we can see when Jesus, for instance, declares that divorced people cannot remarry, or that it is now permissible to ignore the laws of cleanliness, etc.

    For the Quran its not at all clear. Ask around and you will get several answers. Most scholars I have found argue that it is indeed al-Nasr which is the last Surah revealed. It is also popular to consider verse three of Al-Ma'ida to be the last revelation, this is the basic outlook of the Sunni muslims which number at 90% of all muslims. The only places I find the argument that the ninth Surah is the last one, are ones made by Christians in criticising Islam.

    There's also simple historical problem in that for most of history people just didn't forcefully convert, not even during conquest by muslims. They no more forcefully converted than people did when Christians came to conquer America, or settle colonies in various places (where they did sometimes perform forced baptism - regardless of scriptural merit or not). Eventual homogenization happened, which is not at all mysterious to me.

    As a further note, the concept of taqqiya (or idtirar) comes into play far too frequently among Islamic scholars
    But this begs the question if I show you a majority of scholars in the West saying that its al-Nasr, you'll argue that they're employing a secret strategy of lying. After all this notion that taqqiya is applied universally by Muslims as a get out of jail free card, is in itself an act of islamophobia. And borders on the kind of conspiracy theories Christians used to have about the jews.

  2. #82
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    As Sparko correctly pointed out, she is quick to condemn white supremacists, Trump, and Israel but when it comes to the group responsible for nearly all of the worst incidents in the past few decades, then the indignant hemming and hawing begin.
    That is your interpretation. I would say it is more than codemnation. Insisting that the question is so absurd that it does not deserve an answer seems to make it clear to anyone what she thinks about them. Unless, of course, you want to interpret it in the least favourable way.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    ETA: Oh and "Error 404-Page NOT Found"
    Sorry: https://thefederalist.com/2019/07/16...mic-terrorism/

    Enjoy
    "This is why in my debates with atheists and agnostics I always try to treat them with charity and civility and not engage in name-calling or insults or even just interruptions. I think that is uncivil discourse." - Dr. William Lane Craig.

  3. #83
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    The Bible has an entire section where God Himself called openly for genocide. And that it was explicit genocide as well, with even children being killed as part of the order.



    So does the Bible, and for most of Christian history being an atheist or criticizing Christianity was a capitol offense.



    If you actually believed this sentence, you ought to be a Muslim.

    Islam is made up. There isn't any divinely mandated Islam out there. So this sentence of yours is complete nonsense. There are at least five major branches of Islam, and within those various disagreements with each other. There is more diversity with the Islamic community over interpretation than there is between Christian churches. The gulf seperating a Suffi from a Wahabi is so vast they practically consider each other as being different religions.
    God's very specific and limited commands to Israel to kill entire nations wasn't for the purpose of spreading Judaism but, rather, was God using Israel as his instrument of punishment. Unlike Islam, our scriptures contain no general, open-ended commands to kill unbelievers, and certainly you will find nothing saying that we should take up arms and kill any who refuse to submit to Christ.

    The Koran is pretty clear about what is expected from its followers, and Mohammad set the example. I suppose you can argue that Islam is just a made up religion and that people are free to interpret and follow it however they want, but that's generally not how religions work, and certainly not how Islam has worked for the vast majority of its history.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  4. #84
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    I remember asking Cow Poke why he never criticises Conservatives, and he answered "Because they're already criticised by the leftists all the time, so I don't have to"
    I am also criticised all the time. By Cow Poke among others. I assume he is going to stop based on his principle.
    "This is why in my debates with atheists and agnostics I always try to treat them with charity and civility and not engage in name-calling or insults or even just interruptions. I think that is uncivil discourse." - Dr. William Lane Craig.

  5. #85
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    This doctrine can only be applied when you know which Surah abrogates what. Its the same in the Bible, except as it's laid out in chronological order (except for some of the Old Testament), we can see when Jesus, for instance, declares that divorced people cannot remarry, or that it is now permissible to ignore the laws of cleanliness, etc.

    For the Quran its not at all clear. Ask around and you will get several answers. Most scholars I have found argue that it is indeed al-Nasr which is the last Surah revealed. It is also popular to consider verse three of Al-Ma'ida to be the last revelation, this is the basic outlook of the Sunni muslims which number at 90% of all muslims. The only places I find the argument that the ninth Surah is the last one, are ones made by Christians in criticising Islam.

    There's also simple historical problem in that for most of history people just didn't forcefully convert, not even during conquest by muslims. They no more forcefully converted than people did when Christians came to conquer America, or settle colonies in various places (where they did sometimes perform forced baptism - regardless of scriptural merit or not). Eventual homogenization happened, which is not at all mysterious to me.
    As previously pointed out the ninth Surah, the one that contains the verse (ayat) of the Sword, is considered either the last surah written (they're organized not in chronological order but IIRC their length) or very close to it. In any case, it abrogates any earlier verse that contradicts it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    But this begs the question if I show you a majority of scholars in the West saying that its al-Nasr, you'll argue that they're employing a secret strategy of lying. After all this notion that taqqiya is applied universally by Muslims as a get out of jail free card, is in itself an act of islamophobia. And borders on the kind of conspiracy theories Christians used to have about the jews.
    I'll get back to this later with examples but I'm likely not going to be able to do so tonight.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  6. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  7. #86
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    God's very specific and limited commands to Israel...
    Nope, you're not allowed to argue with context and exegesis, if you don't extend the same right to Muslims.

    The Koran is pretty clear ... and certainly not how Islam has worked for the vast majority of its history.
    There are five major branches of Islam, within those there are further distinctions. In the vast majority of history, people have not undergone forced conversion, and most muslims don't believe that people should be forced to believe.
    Last edited by Leonhard; 09-11-2019 at 02:09 PM.

  8. #87
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    As previously pointed out the ninth Surah, the one that contains the verse (ayat) of the Sword, is considered either the last surah written (they're organized not in chronological order but IIRC their length) or very close to it. In any case, it abrogates any earlier verse that contradicts it.
    You're not interacting with the quote at all, so I'll repeat it.

    For the Quran its not at all clear. Ask around and you will get several answers. Most scholars I have found argue that it is indeed al-Nasr which is the last Surah revealed. It is also popular to consider verse three of Al-Ma'ida to be the last revelation, this is the basic outlook of the Sunni muslims which number at 90% of all muslims. The only places I find the argument that the ninth Surah is the last one, are ones made by Christians in criticising Islam.

  9. #88
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    I am also criticised all the time. By Cow Poke among others. I assume he is going to stop based on his principle.
    Annnh, don't be such a baby - we have had very cordial conversations on at least ... um... one or two occasions!
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  10. #89
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    Nope, you're not allowed to argue with context and exegesis, if you don't extend the same right to Muslims.



    There are five major branches of Islam, within those there are further distinctions. In the vast majority of history, people have not undergone forced conversion, and most muslims don't believe that people should be forced to believe.
    Muslims are allowed to use context and exegesis when interpreting their scriptures. I'm not sure why you think they don't. The problem is that this does nothing to mitigate the Koran's very explicit commands to kill unbelievers, and the example of Mohammad in carrying out these commands.

    I really have no problem with Muslims ignoring some of their own theology and history, but then one begins to wonder why they still follow Islam at all.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  11. #90
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Muslims are allowed to use context and exegesis when interpreting their scriptures. I'm not sure why you think they don't. The problem is that this does nothing to mitigate the Koran's very explicit commands to kill unbelievers, and the example of Mohammad in carrying out these commands.
    Except when you apply even a little exegesis, you quickly run into it being a lot more complex than "kill the infidel", you run into a historical situation where conversion is almost never under threat (Wahabi Islam is a very recent phenomenon). You can look above to Rogue06, who has to argue specifically for the order of revelation happening in a certain way, in order to argue that forced conversion is to be norm.

    So no, you're not applying any context, nor are you trying to learn about what Muslim scholars in the West are arguing. It just looks like to me that you want to do quote-mining on Islam, and use that against them in exactly the same way that atheists quote mine the Bible.

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