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Thread: Why I Voted For Trump...

  1. #81
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    I actually backed up my "subjective belief" with facts. You know, those things that you rarely provide to substantiate your claims and get all upset when others do provide them. Yeah, those things.
    You didn't answer the substance of Jims post. Just sayin!

  2. #82
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Actually, Jimmy, you can't just choose which sentence fragment you wish to spotlight -- this is why CONTEXT is so important. The ENTIRE opinion discusses State interfering with Church.
    I can when I'm using it to explain the the full meaning of the Establishment Clause, not just how it pertained to this particular ruling.

  3. #83
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    I can when I'm using it to explain the the full meaning of the Establishment Clause, not just how it pertained to this particular ruling.
    Yes, you're free to make up stuff as you go along. You're just not going to be able to convince anybody you're right.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  4. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  5. #84
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Good points about prayer, Jim.

    The kicker is when the school goes overboard to stop student-led prayer or bible clubs or the like. Quite honestly, I no longer trust the public schools to oversee "prayer in the schools", as this opens the door wide to Muslim led prayer or "Jimmy the Goat God" prayer.

    On the Bible clubs --- our local schools had slammed the door shut on ANY kind of Bible Club meetings or prayer groups or anything else, until they were successfully sued for discrimination -- they have to be allowed the same rights as the science club, or the math club, or the chess club...
    The public schools are government institutions and there is a wall of separation between government and religion, not between government and mathamatics, science or chess. If the schools were successfully sued, I suspect it was a bad ruling.

  6. #85
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    The public schools are government institutions and there is a wall of separation between government and religion, not between government and mathamatics, science or chess. If the schools were successfully sued, I suspect it was a bad ruling.
    No, Jimmy, a Christian doesn't forfeit her rights simply because she enters into a "public school" because there are anti-Christian bigots around.

    If it's a STUDENT LED club - like the others - it has the same protections under the law. The ruling was fabulous!
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  7. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  8. #86
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    No, Jimmy, a Christian doesn't forfeit her rights simply because she enters into a "public school" because there are anti-Christian bigots around.
    Oh please, oh persecuted one. This has nothing to do with anti-christian bigotry.
    If it's a STUDENT LED club - like the others - it has the same protections under the law. The ruling was fabulous!
    I suppose, maybe, not sure, but possibly, i'm torn, perhaps, so long as the school itself has nothing to do with the club, but then again, maybe not.

  9. #87
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Oh please, oh persecuted one.
    I don't feel the LEAST bit persecuted, oh dramaqueen one.

    This has nothing to do with anti-christian bigotry.
    To deprives Christian kids of the same rights as non-Christian kids would most certainly be bigotry.

    I suppose, maybe, not sure, but possibly, i'm torn, perhaps, so long as the school itself has nothing to do with the club, but then again, maybe not.
    That's the deal, Jim -- if other clubs have a right to meet after school, or during study hours, or before school --- those privileges cannot be withheld from the Christian kids.

    Now, if the school had a policy of ONLY curriculum related stuff, that'd eliminate the Bible study group. As well as chess club, ski club, book-of-the-month club...
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  10. #88
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    Example: the decision that allowing an official monument to bear the 10 commandments, which are relevant to only a few religions, does not pertain to establishment of those religions.
    Which is extremely defensible. The Establishment Clause declares that the federal congress (later extended to the states via the Fourteenth Amendment) shall not make a law respecting an establishment of religion. Was that monument set by a law, even indirectly? As far as I am aware, it was not.

    Even if we wish to take a broader view of the statement of "make no law", a monument is hardly an "establishment." The historical view of the Establishment Clause, including the "wall" between church and state (a statement found nowhere in the Constitution and given by the one founding father who had nothing to do with its writing and ratification, incidentally, as Thomas Jefferson was serving as ambassador to France at the time), was that the state should be staying out of religious practices (a good, albeit brief, analysis can be found here under the "The path of history" heading). In other words, the state has no business setting up a state church, or going to churches (or any other house of worship) and imposing rules for worship, or requiring people to attend certain churches, that sort of thing. A display of the Ten Commandments is not setting up a state church, is not forcing anyone to worship in particular ways, is not requiring people to believe any particular religious element, etc.

    Further, such things were allowed with apparently no problems for a very long amount of time. Now, it is true that longevity doesn't inherently mean something is in fact constitutional. But it means that you have to have a particularly good argument as to why everyone in preceding centuries had it all wrong in what the constitution prohibited.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    You are talking about leftists courts who did not follow the Constitution. Take School prayer - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. A School district is not Congress, nor does the School district made law.
    Well, yes, the school district is not congress. Prior to 1868, you would be correct in this assertion. But the Fourteenth Amendment extending the Bill of Rights to the states changed that entirely--even if it took the Supreme Court an overly long time to get around to actually recognizing this despite the fact that extending the Bill of Rights to the states was a stated reason for the Fourteenth Amendment.

    As for the question of laws, if we are discussing Engel v. Vitale, there was a law, albeit an indirect one. As stated in the opinion:

    "The respondent Board of Education of Union Free School District No. 9, New Hyde Park, New York, acting in its official capacity under state law, directed the School District's principal to cause the following prayer to be said aloud by each class in the presence of a teacher at the beginning of each school day"

    Just as a law cannot respect establishment of a religion, it logically cannot be applied in such a way to respect establishment of a religion.

    But what is often ignored in regards to Engel v. Vitale was the actual reasoning for the decision. It was, specifically, the fact that the prayer in question was composed and selected by the government. As vague and nondenominational as the selected prayer was, it was nevertheless the government composing and selecting a prayer--which is the government getting, albeit lightly, into the actual establishment of religion. One may point to the prayers that open congress... but to my knowledge, the actual selection is at the discretion of the chaplain, rather than being written by the government.

    There is certainly a much stronger case that school prayers, at least as was done in this case, violate the Establishment Clause than there is for the idea that a simple monument violates it.

  11. #89
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    To deprives Christian kids of the same rights as non-Christian kids would most certainly be bigotry.
    It isn't about the kids. Christian kids, I'm sure, participate in the science, math, and chess clubs as well. It's about government sponsership of a religion.


    That's the deal, Jim -- if other clubs have a right to meet after school, or during study hours, or before school --- those privileges cannot be withheld from the Christian kids.

    Now, if the school had a policy of ONLY curriculum related stuff, that'd eliminate the Bible study group. As well as chess club, ski club, book-of-the-month club...
    That sounds fair, I think, just so long as it is student run and has nothing to do with the school, (other than a space,) the staff or the curriculum. But I see problems down the road should the school get involved in any way.
    Hope you don't complain when the student clubs demanding school space are muslim or atheist.
    Last edited by JimL; 09-17-2019 at 04:29 AM.

  12. #90
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraceth View Post
    Well, yes, the school district is not congress. Prior to 1868, you would be correct in this assertion. But the Fourteenth Amendment extending the Bill of Rights to the states changed that entirely--even if it took the Supreme Court an overly long time to get around to actually recognizing this despite the fact that extending the Bill of Rights to the states was a stated reason for the Fourteenth Amendment.

    As for the question of laws, if we are discussing Engel v. Vitale, there was a law, albeit an indirect one. As stated in the opinion:

    "The respondent Board of Education of Union Free School District No. 9, New Hyde Park, New York, acting in its official capacity under state law, directed the School District's principal to cause the following prayer to be said aloud by each class in the presence of a teacher at the beginning of each school day"

    Just as a law cannot respect establishment of a religion, it logically cannot be applied in such a way to respect establishment of a religion.

    But what is often ignored in regards to Engel v. Vitale was the actual reasoning for the decision. It was, specifically, the fact that the prayer in question was composed and selected by the government. As vague and nondenominational as the selected prayer was, it was nevertheless the government composing and selecting a prayer--which is the government getting, albeit lightly, into the actual establishment of religion. One may point to the prayers that open congress... but to my knowledge, the actual selection is at the discretion of the chaplain, rather than being written by the government.

    There is certainly a much stronger case that school prayers, at least as was done in this case, violate the Establishment Clause than there is for the idea that a simple monument violates it.
    In my schools growing up prayer was voluntary and teacher led. Some teachers would and others wouldn't. And you did NOT have to join in (mostly said the our Father). I had one teacher who read a Psalm every morning. I don't see how this violates the above standard.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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