Why I Voted For Trump...

[JimL]

Thomas Paine had, as far as I can tell, nothing to do with the drafting of the Constitution of the United States.

So what? He had much to do with the revolution.

Citation needed.

A treaty with Libya which, though I don't know if hJohn Adams wrote it, possibly, but he did sign it.

And, as I have pointed out repeatedly, Thomas Jefferson was off in France during the writing and ratification of the Constitution. Isn't it interesting that it's the least qualified of the "Founding Fathers" to weigh in on the Constitution that you keep citing over and over in order to try to show support for your constitutional interpretation?

Well, if you want to go by the Constitution, afaik, not a word about god, jesus or christianity is mentioned therein, . Theres no doubt that many, most, of the Founders were born and raised christian, but that fact does not mean that they Founded the country on christianity. Many of the Founders, including the christians were influenced by deism and the enlightenment, so the argument that they were christian and therefore the country is a christian nation is poppycock.

[Tassman]

Nonsense Tass, I never said this was a Christian nation, but I can demonstrate that Christianity had a profound influence

Just as well because the US was NOT founded as a Christian nation:

“As we witness yet again the brutal and bloody consequences of religious intolerance in the form of ISIS, we have a majority of Republicans pining for a Christian America. Proponents of converting the United States into a theocracy do not see the terrible parallel between religious excess in the Middle East and here at home, but they would not because blindness to reason is the inevitable consequence of religious zealotry.

Conservatives who so proudly tout their fealty to the Constitution want to trash our founding document by violating the First Amendment in hopes of establishing Christianity as the nation’s religion. This is precisely what the Constitution prohibits”

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/found...re-n_b_6761840

[Terraceth]

So what? He had much to do with the revolution.

The Revolution, yes, in supporting it (Common Sense really brought people over to the side of independence). But the actual founding or constitution? Not so much.

For that matter, at the time I believe he kept his Deist beliefs fairly low-key at that time, only going full-force into them a good deal later. Common Sense actually appeals to the Bible repeatedly to make its case.

A treaty with Libya which, though I don't know if hJohn Adams wrote it, possibly, but he did sign it.

I'm aware the quote came from the Treaty of Tripoli. But I thought I'd give Tassman the benefit of the doubt and ask if John Adams actually did write it in some letter or something... but apparently he didn't. Tassman misattributed the quote.

John Adams signing it means nothing. Signing=/=writing, which was the claim. But even if we want to redirect it and say that John Adams was expressing agreement, that's absurd also--signing a bill or treaty doesn't imply full agreement with it.

The Treaty of Tripoli is its own weird thing, but the bottom line is that the claim John Adams wrote that phrase is silly. The treaty got "written" outside of the US and then was sent back for final approval.

Many of the Founders, including the christians were influenced by deism and the enlightenment, so the argument that they were christian and therefore the country is a christian nation is poppycock.

That wasn't the argument being made, as far as I understood it.

[seer]

Just as well because the US was NOT founded as a Christian nation:

No but listen to Adams:

John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, 28 June 1813

The general Principles, on which the Fathers Achieved Independence, were the only Principles in which, that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their Address, or by me in my Answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity,10 in which all those Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities Sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

Now I will avow, that I then believed, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God: and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System. I could therefore Safely Say, consistently with all my then and present Information, that I believed they would never make Discoveries in contradiction to these general Principles...

https://founders.archives.gov/docume.../03-06-02-0208

[Tassman]

No but listen to Adams:

No, YOU listen to Adams:

“The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.” John Adams, “A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” 1787-1788

For every quote you can find supporting your cause there are many more that contradict it.

http://liberalamerica.life/2014/10/2...ligious-right/

The Founding Fathers did not create a secular government because they disliked religion. Many were believers themselves. Yet they were well aware of the dangers of church-state union. They had studied and even seen first-hand the difficulties that church-state partnerships spawned in Europe. During the American colonial period, alliances between religion and government produced oppression and tyranny on our own shores.

https://www.au.org/resources/publica...ristian-nation

[seer]

No, YOU listen to Adams:

“The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.” John Adams, “A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” 1787-1788

For every quote you can find supporting your cause there are many more that contradict it.

http://liberalamerica.life/2014/10/2...ligious-right/

The Founding Fathers did not create a secular government because they disliked religion. Many were believers themselves. Yet they were well aware of the dangers of church-state union. They had studied and even seen first-hand the difficulties that church-state partnerships spawned in Europe. During the American colonial period, alliances between religion and government produced oppression and tyranny on our own shores.

https://www.au.org/resources/publica...ristian-nation

What are you talking about Tass, that doesn't change the fact that Adam clearly said that our independence was grounded in the principles of Christianity.

[JimL]

What are you talking about Tass, that doesn't change the fact that Adam clearly said that our independence was grounded in the principles of Christianity.

Grounded in the principles of christianity, doesn't make it founded on christianity itself, seer. The principles of christianity don't necessarily belong to christianity as their source.

[seer]

Grounded in the principles of christianity, doesn't make it founded on christianity itself, seer. The principles of christianity don't necessarily belong to christianity as their source.

The point of this whole exercise is to show that not one Founding father would have had a problem with school prayer or other Christian displays in government forums. Many in fact used tax dollars to support the Christian religion. Your old state Massachusetts, and mine, Connecticut, and others - had tax supported state churches - that practice lasted into the 1830s and eventually just faded away - but not because any court found it unconstitutional. Never mind that the early states had laws directly sourced in the Bible - heck we still have blue laws today. You can not divorce this nation and it's founding from the Christian Religion.

[JimL]

The point of this whole exercise is to show that not one Founding father would have had a problem with school prayer or other Christian displays in government forums. Many in fact used tax dollars to support the Christian religion. Your old state Massachusetts, and mine, Connecticut, and others - had tax supported state churches - that practice lasted into the 1830s and eventually just faded away - but not because any court found it unconstitutional. Never mind that the early states had laws directly sourced in the Bible - heck we still have blue laws today. You can not divorce this nation and it's founding from the Christian Religion.

Well they should have made that explicit in the Constitution if that was the case. They didn't! And in a 1947 SCOTUS case, Everson vs the Board of Education, the SCOTUS ruled that, in accord with the Establishment Clause, the incorporation Clause, and, I believe, 14th Amendment, that "no tax could be levied to support any religious activities or religious Institutions."

[seer]

Well they should have made that explicit in the Constitution if that was the case. They didn't! And in a 1947 SCOTUS case, Everson vs the Board of Education, the SCOTUS ruled that, in accord with the Establishment Clause, the incorporation Clause, and, I believe, 14th Amendment, that "no tax could be levied to support any religious activities or religious Institutions."

What is your point Jim? That was in 1947, and was not following what the Founders actually did. The fact is the United States would not exist today, and you would not have God given rights, if not for Christians and the Christian Religion - from the Pilgrims onward...

[JimL]

What is your point Jim? That was in 1947, and was not following what the Founders actually did. The fact is the United States would not exist today, and you would not have God given rights, if not for Christians and the Christian Religion - from the Pilgrims onward...

You wouldn't be free from religious tyranny if it weren't for the wisdom of the Founding fathers to found a secular government, separate from the religious tyranny they fled from.

[seer]

You wouldn't be free from religious tyranny if it weren't for the wisdom of the Founding fathers to found a secular government, separate from the religious tyranny they fled from.

Jim, I'm not asking for state Church where people are forced to join. But we had school prayer and quasi government support for the Christian religion for most of our history and that did not lead to religious tyranny. I mean to this day the President swears his oath of office on a Christian Bible.

[JimL]

Jim, I'm not asking for state Church where people are forced to join. But we had school prayer and quasi government support for the Christian religion for most of our history and that did not lead to religious tyranny. I mean to this day the President swears his oath of office on a Christian Bible.

Yeah, we had slavery for most of our history as well, so what. You have to go by the ideals as set down in the founding documents, not necessarily what they, what some of them, continued to practice at the time. And yes, you are asking for a state sponsered religion when you want christian prayer forced upon non-christians in public schools, or forced payment of taxes to support religious activities or Institutions/churches.

[rogue06]

Yeah, we had slavery for most of our history as well, so what.

Since you've been talking about the U.S....

Whether you go by the year independence was declared (1776) or the Constitution was ratified (1788), when you consider that slavery was outlawed everywhere in the country with the passage of the 13th Amendment (1865) that means there was slavery in the U.S. for between 77 and 89 years.

Now compare that with how long we haven't had slavery. 154 years. That is nearly twice as long.

[seer]

Yeah, we had slavery for most of our history as well, so what. You have to go by the ideals as set down in the founding documents, not necessarily what they, what some of them, continued to practice at the time. And yes, you are asking for a state sponsered religion when you want christian prayer forced upon non-christians in public schools, or forced payment of taxes to support religious activities or Institutions/churches.

Jim the point is even with things like school prayer some government support for Christianity, the Ten Commandments in School, we did NOT have religious tyranny.