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Thread: Why I Voted For Trump...

  1. #281
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Oh, then you don't want teachers leading class with christian prayers in public schools or christian monuments placed in public places and buildings? Good for you, CP.
    You could try citing the surveys that show 30+% of Americans would support a constitutional amendment to make Christianity the official religion of the US. Or link to any of the several proposals by state governments to establish Christianity over other religions, including the recent one from Tennessee that declared rights came from God, not from the constitution.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

    Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.

  2. #282
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    You could try citing the surveys that show 30+% of Americans would support a constitutional amendment to make Christianity the official religion of the US.
    But you would actually provide a link, no?

    Or link to any of the several proposals by state governments to establish Christianity over other religions,
    Me not.

    including the recent one from Tennessee that declared rights came from God, not from the constitution.
    You mean like.... We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed… ?
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  3. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  4. #283
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    But you would actually provide a link, no?



    Me not.



    You mean like.... We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed… ?
    The constitution doesn't grant us any rights. It only recognizes the rights we already have and limits control and permissions of the government.

  5. Amen RumTumTugger, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  6. #284
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraceth View Post
    Justices really aren't "conservative" or "liberal." Those are somewhat misleading terms, but people use them for convenience. It is more accurate to refer them to judges that reach decisions that are generally favorable to conservative political interests or judges that reach decisions that are generally favorable to liberal political interests. But the actual reaching of those decisions is not based on those political factors. For example, the constitutional question of abortion rests not on the liberal or conservative moral views of it, but the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment. That is why the strongly pro-choice John Hart Ely was able to write "The Wages of Crying Wolf", an article harshly criticizing Roe v. Wade as one of the worst decisions of the last several decades.
    Thanks Terraceth. Are you assuming that the reasons cited in judicial decisions are the actual reasons for the decision, and not just a post-hoc justification? Maybe I'm too cynical, but some SCOTUS opinions seem more like rationalisations.

    But it comes down to whether judges are biased or not. If they are, then their decisions are not based purely on the law/constitution. If they are not, then appointing "conservative" judges is a pointless exercise.

    How is this "based on their religion"? Scalia was Catholic, and Rehnquist was ELCA. Neither group is exactly big on young earth creationism, so I doubt either of them held to that belief.

    You can certainly disagree with their argument, which I myself find questionable, but I have a difficult time seeing how their religions caused them to pronounce such a verdict.
    It's possible that they believed the Louisiana defendants' claims that teaching creationism in science classes has a secular purpose, as they said in their dissent opinion. But like you, I find their argument questionable. So questionable that I can't help wondering whether they were aware of flaws in the defendents' position but upheld it anyway. Again, maybe I'm too cynical and should stop considering subterfuge where idiocy is an option.

    Hrm... it's interesting, I was going to list a bunch of liberal originalists, but then I realized none of them were judges.

    Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black absolutely qualifies, but he's hardly current--he retired back in the 1970's. Still, it is notable that one of the best-known originalists/textualists on the Supreme Court was a liberal justice. Of course, he almost certainly would have voted against Roe v. Wade had still been on the court when it was decided (Roe v. Wade was decided less than 2 years after his retirement).
    Again, thank you. I wasn't looking forward to searching for examples that might show that originalism and conservatism are on separate axes, especially since I wasn't sure there'd be any.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

    Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.

  7. #285
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    "Judicial conservative" often goes hand-in-hand with "originalist."
    Often implies not always.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

    Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.

  8. #286
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    But you would actually provide a link, no?
    I would. Luckily it's not hard to find one. You could have done it yourself if you were inclined.
    You mean like.... We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed… ?
    No, not like that. The Tennessee one explicitly refers to God.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

    Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.

  9. #287
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    No, not like that. The Tennessee one explicitly refers to God.

    But rights don't come the Constitution, they come from God. As the Founders said. And what Tennessee is doing is not unusual:



    Alabama

    That all men are equally free and independent; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    Arizona

    We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution.

    California

    We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure and perpetuate its blessings, do establish this Constitution.

    Connecticut

    The People of Connecticut acknowledging with gratitude, the good providence of God, in having permitted them to enjoy a free government.

    Delaware

    Through Divine goodness, all men have by nature the rights of worshiping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences, of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring and protecting reputation and property, and in general of obtaining objects suitable to their condition...

    Florida

    We, the people of the State of Florida, being grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty

    Idaho

    We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom

    There are more in the link...


    https://www.usconstitution.net/states_god.html
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  10. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  11. #288
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    But rights don't come the Constitution, they come from God. As the Founders said.
    Exactly... the Constitution doesn't confer rights; rather, it protects the rights we inherently have. Roy seems to have a really hard time with that concept.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  12. Amen NorrinRadd, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  13. #289
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Yeah, I guess you would know better than the women themselves, seer.
    That women are often remorseful of their decision to abort their baby is hardly controversial. For instance, back in 1992 the Journal of Social Issues devoted an entire issue to the psychological effects of abortion that an overview of the contributors’ papers resulted in the editor, Dr. Gregory Wilmoth, matter-of-factly concluding "There is now virtually no disagreement among researchers that some women experience negative psychological reactions postabortion." Over a quarter century later the medical literature has greatly increased and Wilmoth's conclusion has become even more robustly corroborated.

    For instance, the distinguished professor of Psychological and Brain Sciences at the University of California, Santa Barbara, Dr. Brenda Major conducted a study in 2000 which found that two years after having aborted their baby roughly 28% of American women believed that their abortion did more harm than good.

    A 2013 study by Curley and Johnston of U.S. and Canadian female students found all women with a history of abortion had elevated trauma scores on the Impact of Events Scale and perinatal grief on the Perinatal Grief Scale three years after the abortion, with approximately half of them desiring treatment for it.

    Also in 2013, Bowling Green State University professor of Human Development and Family Studies Priscilla K. Coleman published a study in the British Journal of Psychiatry which concluded that "women who had undergone abortion experienced an 81% increased risk of mental health problems."

    And last year Dr. David C. Reardon conducted an in-depth examination of all the previous literature reviews regarding mental health effects associated with legal abortion published since 2005 and found that

    both sides agree that (a) abortion is consistently associated with elevated rates of mental illness compared to women without a history of abortion; (b) the abortion experience directly contributes to mental health problems for at least some women

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  14. #290
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    I would. Luckily it's not hard to find one. You could have done it yourself if you were inclined.
    I was not.

    No, not like that. The Tennessee one explicitly refers to God.
    And, in the quote below....

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    You mean like.... We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed… ?
    To whom do you think the founders were referring? Where do you think they got that?

    (And, in cause you're unaware, that's directly from the Declaration of Independence, and is a critical part of the founding of our nation)
    Last edited by Cow Poke; 09-20-2019 at 11:12 AM.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  15. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.

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