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Thread: Why I Voted For Trump...

  1. #751
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Got a cite for that? That's simply a liberal talking point, Jim

    False Claim #1: Legalizing abortion makes it rarer and safe. “In limiting access to abortion, lawmakers may unwittingly force women towards these unsafe options. By contrast, where legal and more easily accessible abortion rates actually go down.”

    The argument that legalizing abortion makes it safer, and also makes abortion rates go down, is gravely flawed. First and foremost, even if it were true, the argument contradicts a basic universal moral principle that the ends never justify the means. The authors are talking about legalizing the taking of innocent lives in order to… make the taking of innocent lives safer and less frequent. It just doesn’t add up. Laws exist to protect the most fundamental of rights, the first of which is the right to life.

    The other major problem is that the evidence to support the claim that abortions are more dangerous and more frequent when they are illegal is questionable at best. The authors link to an NBC story, which in turn references a Guttmacher study that actually states, “Abortion rates are similar in countries where abortion is highly restricted and where it is broadly legal. The abortion rate is 37 per 1,000 women in countries that prohibit abortion altogether or allow it only to save a woman’s life, and 34 per 1,000 in countries that allow abortion without restriction as to reason—a difference that is not significant.” In other words, even according to the Guttmacher Institute, the evidence does not support the authors’ claim that the rates go down with legalization. According to their own data, there is no statistical difference. The “rare” part of “safe, legal, and rare” is, and always has been, a complete myth.

    source
    The pro-abortion crowd only cares about keeping abortion legal and if anything wants to increase abortions:

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Sad to say the left has been celebrating abortions for awhile now

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Unfortunately there are those who see abortions as being something to celebrate and are unhappy when abortion numbers drop and happy when they go up.

    From a few short past posts:

    Celebrating abortions:


    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Among certain elements it is virtually becoming a sacrament.

    Earlier this year Planned Parenthood was able to gather 20 religious leaders to bless their newest center in Washington D.C. built next to an Elementary school. The president and CEO of Planned Parenthood of Metropolitan Washington gushed, "In almost every message to our staff, I talk about our doing sacred work. This confirms the sacredness of the work we do." Providing abortions (and let's not kid ourselves, in spite of their protests to the contrary, that is pretty much PP's primary activity) is "sacred work" for these people.

    And about the same time the TV show Degrassi: Next Class in an episode called "#IRegretNothing" has a 16 year old going to an abortion clinic where one of her friends says "Making that difficult choice and standing up for it? You’re courageous! We should go out and celebrate!" And they all go out to celebrate by having ice cream. They call it celebrating a second time when one proclaims that they're going "To celebrate Lola’s bravery!" Yeah real brave, killing a defenseless unborn baby. Maybe she should get a medal.

    As an aside, the girl who had the abortion remarks that she doesn't feel sad about aborting her baby to which one of her classmates adds "A lot of women have abortions and feel no shame," and goes on to cite rapper Nicki Minaj as one celebrity who had an abortion while still in High School. What is left out is that in 2014 Minaj told Rolling Stone magazine that this decision has "haunted me all my life." Darn those pesky details.

    Two years ago there was a piece in the Huffington Post urging women to celebrate Mother's Day with abortion. Talk about the world turned upside down. Since then others have celebrated Valentine's Day with abortion such as TeenVogue.com which posted a "What to Get a Friend Post-Abortion" guide including this (crass and crude warning to those who click on it). And the Vegan website VegWeb.com was promoting a "Valentine’s Day Sale" for abortion pills.

    And the entire #ShoutYourAbortion movement is little more than an effort to celebrate abortions


    Happy about increased abortions:

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains, located in Las Vegas, Nevada (Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's turf) gave its Aurua, Colorado abortion clinic an award for increasing the number of babies killed in abortions.

    Source: Planned Parenthood Gives Clinic Award for 'Exceeding Abortion Visits' of Previous Year


    Proving once and for all that Planned Parenthood's business is abortion, Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains gave its Aurora abortion clinic an award certificate for "exceeding abortion visits [in the] first half of FY12 compared to the first half of FY13."

    Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains is the 2nd largest Planned Parenthood facility in the U.S.

    00000000000000ab000-00aaad.jpg

    The picture of the award was snapped by a former worker who saw it posted on a bulletin board in Denver. The board displays awards satellite clinics have earned.

    The award challenged the Planned Parenthood worker's thinking, since it showed that clinics were given abortion "quotas" to meet, and that this particular clinic had "exceeded" expectations and received an award for doing so.

    From a blog post by Abby Johnson, former Planned Parenthood director turned pro-life advocate:

    Ever since I left Planned Parenthood, I have been talking about the abortion quotas that are established inside abortion facilities. Many abortion supporters refused to believe it, citing that surely Planned Parenthood wants abortion to be safe, legal and RARE. If they want something to be RARE, they certainly wouldn't have quotas, right?

    Planned Parenthood had a net revenue of $1.21 billion last year, and received $540.6 million in U.S. taxpayer funding.


    Source

    © Copyright Original Source



    So much for wanting to make abortions rare but safe and legal when you award clinics for increasing the number of abortions




    Unhappy when abortion rates drop:

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    For years the pro-abortion crowd has told everyone that they want to make abortion "safe, legal and rare." For instance back in 2008 Hillary Clinton proclaimed at a campaign event that she thought abortion should be "safe, legal and rare, and by rare I mean rare." But the reality of the situation is that some really are not interested in the rare part and see a decrease in abortions as being a bad thing.

    Case in point, in a tweet earlier this week Cosmopolitan magazine, a long time major advocate for abortions, lamented an increase of babies born in Texas after that state defunded organizations, such as Planned Parenthood, that provide abortions.


    The link in the tweet goes to a Cosmo story about a study conducted by the Texas Policy Evaluation Project at University of Texas Austin which found a 1.9% "increase in the birthing rate in counties that once had state-funded Planned Parenthood clinics." And as can be seen by the accompanying sad-face emoji in the tweet Cosmo thinks that people having more babies and less abortions is a negative result.

    So much for "safe, legal and rare" -- or at least for the last part. But then what can you expect from a magazine that last year started a campaign trying to get women to say how great abortions are (#ShoutYourAbortion). After all, why would you want to make something that is so positive a rare thing?


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  2. #752
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Abortion is safer and rarer due to it's being legal.
    Safer? Probably. Rarer? Hardly.

  3. #753
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraceth View Post
    Safer? Probably. Rarer? Hardly.
    It's certainly not safer for the baby. Every successful abortion results in a dead body.
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  4. Amen One Bad Pig amen'd this post.
  5. #754
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraceth View Post
    Safer? Probably. Rarer? Hardly.
    From yet another old post:

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    I've already commented on the "making them rare" aspect of the "safe, rare and legal" mantra voiced by abortion advocates so let's look at the other two parts.



    Even though abortion has been legal for 45 years a number of abortion centers have conditions strikingly similar the worst of the horror stories circulated about "back-alley" abortions. Today in the era when making abortions legal was also supposed to make them safe the facilities, like the ones in New York City, are inspected less than tanning salons and "Illinois abortion clinics hadn't been inspected for up to 15 years before the Gosnell case broke, an Associated Press investigation found."[1]

    Due to the exposing of abortionist Kermit Gosnell’s House of Horrors, which contained filthy equipment, jars of baby body parts, a freezer full of aborted children, blood-stained blankets, and "a flea-infested cat ... wandering through the facility"[2] the public has become more concerned about the conditions in these places. Similar things were taking place at centers runs by Nareshkumar "Naresh" Patel, Brian Finkel, Robert Rho, James Pendergraft IV and others. Abortion centers are being investigated for botched abortions or hazardous facilities in Alabama, New Mexico, Minnesota, Maryland, Colorado and Florida. There may be more, since abortion record-keeping is abysmal.

    According to the Philadelphia Inquirer

    Source: Problems with N.J. late-term abortion business similar to Pa.'s


    For five months last year, New Jersey regulators received complaints that abortion doctor Steven Brigham, 54, was running a secret, cash-only, late-term abortion business using a risky interstate scheme - one for which he was disciplined in the 1990s.

    Just as in the Gosnell case, regulators took no public action against Brigham - until a police raid forced them to.

    ...

    None of Brigham's six New Jersey clinics is licensed to do surgery, so, rather than lose business, he evaded the rules, prosecutors say. He initiated late-term abortions in Voorhees; the next day, he led car caravans of patients, in labor, to Elkton, Md., for surgery.

    ...

    Elizabeth Barnes, director of Cherry Hill Women's Center, a South Jersey abortion clinic, said she wrote to New Jersey's medical licensing board in June 2009 detailing her suspicions that Brigham was starting third-trimester abortions in Voorhees and finishing them in a clandestine clinic, probably in Maryland.

    In response, Barnes said, an investigator talked to her, off and on, for months. Yet no official action was taken against Brigham.

    Barnes' suspicions should have rung bells. In the 1990s, Brigham did late-term abortions that straddled Voorhees and New York City.

    In 1994, New York authorities took his license in that state for botching two abortions, one begun in Voorhees. They called him "undertrained," with "submarginal abilities" and "not the slightest recognition of his deficiencies." New Jersey prosecuted Brigham for those same cases, plus four more. But Brigham's appeals ultimately reached an administrative judge who found him "sincere" and "credible," and reinstated his license.

    ...

    On Aug. 17, police raided the Elkton clinic - a storefront operation with no sign, that had opened about a year earlier - but could not find her medical records. They did, however, find 35 late-term fetal bodies and parts, none with records.

    ...

    Although Elkton is closed, three American Women's Services clinics are open in Maryland. So are six in New Jersey, two in Virginia (where he has never had a license), and two in Pennsylvania.



    Source

    © Copyright Original Source



    An investigation into New Jersey abortion center injuries revealed that they are not being inspected, as the law required. The state has four centers that perform late-term abortions and 3 of the 4 had gone 5 years or even longer without a state health inspection.

    Here in Georgia Channel 2 WSB (owned by the same company that runs the proudly liberal Atlanta Journal-Constitution newspaper) Lori Geary, who recently stepped down as a political reporter and was also an anchor at CNN's Headline News, conducted an investigation finding that inspections of all five abortion centers in the state found numerous health violations including "Unsterilized instruments, dirty linens and expired medications"

    Source: Records: Georgia's abortion clinics face numerous inspection violations


    Geary got the inspection records for all five clinics three weeks after filing the open records request. Some of them were pages long, listing numerous violations. Those violations were for items like expired medications and medical instruments, including speculums. Others listed unsterilized equipment, sterilized and non-sterile supplies stored in the same room with a traffic cone, the vent in a biohazard room taped off with cardboard, soiled linens in surgical rooms and stirrups wrapped in duct tape. One violation was for iodine swabs to prevent wound infections that had expired 10 years ago.

    "If I was a patient at that clinic I would be horrified to know that maybe the tools they were using were not clean," said Galloway.

    Planned Parenthood runs only one of the five surgical clinics. It's located in Augusta and had 23 violations in 2011, and paid a $1,400 fine.

    In a very candid interview, the organization's CEO told Geary there was a change in leadership at the clinic, and a corrective action plan was submitted. Still, state records show, inspectors didn't visit the clinic until two years later, in March 2013.



    Source

    © Copyright Original Source



    And Planned Parenthood actually sued the state of Indiana trying to block a law that required yearly inspections. The law also required they keep and turn over information to the Department of Health detailing "abortion complications" that arose. PP complained both requirements "impose unique and burdensome obligations" on them.

    Pro-abortion activists maintain such oversight of abortion centers is "medically unnecessary" and "politically motivated" but even after Gosnell inspectors continued to find serious problems in other facilities in that state. For example, a recent unannounced state inspection of the Hillcrest Women’s Medical Center (HWMC) abortion facility in Harrisburg "determined that the facility was not in compliance with the requirements of the Pennsylvania Department of Health's Rules and Regulations for Ambulatory Care Facilities" and among other things

    Observation of the facility on August 12, 2016, revealed the facility was very warm and did not have operating air conditioning. According to Accuweather, the actual high temperature on August 12, 2016, was 96 degrees Fahrenheit. The facility did not have a thermometer inside and could not provide the room air temperature.

    An interview conducted on August 12, 2016, at 10:00 AM with EMP1 confirmed the facility did not report the loss of air conditioning, as an infrastructure failure. EMP1 further revealed that the air conditioning broke around June 17-20, 2016. EMP1 confirmed that a service technician was onsite on June 23, 2016, and July 28, 2016. The air conditioner had not been fixed as of August 12, 2016. EMP1 further stated that "I guess I should have reported it."


    So much for making abortions legal will make them safe. But will reversing Roe be detrimental to women as some have asserted?

    For decades, supporters of abortion on demand have insisted that if Roe were overturned women would be forced into "back alley" abortions which would lead to massive increase in maternal mortality.

    First the whole spiel about illegal abortions resulted in thousands of deaths each year was exposed as nothing but a lie. A deliberate lie. The pro-abortion side deliberately fabricated statistics concerning illegal abortions in order to garner support.

    Bernard Nathanson, co-founder in 1969 of the National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws (NARAL) and one time director of New York City’s Center for Reproductive and Sexual Health (who later found God and became a very vocal Pro-Life supporter) exposed how the pro-abortion movement deliberately fabricated statistics concerning the number of deaths linked to illegal abortions in order to garner support for legalizing abortion. He confessed that he and his fellow travelers constantly fed the media the lie that 10,000 women a year died as a result of botched illegal abortion when in fact it was but a tiny fraction of that (in 1972, the year prior to Roe v. Wade, 28 deaths were reported from illegal abortions). The MSM dutifully and uncritically regurgitated these numbers.

    Now that is out of the way let's look at the facts.

    So let's turn to Chile. Why Chile you ask? While most countries in recent years have lessened legal restrictions on abortion, in contrast Chile took the opposite approach. In that country prior to 1989 abortion was largely legal, but in 1989, Chile banned all "therapeutic" abortions, thus providing us with an actual example of what can be expected when abortion is made illegal.

    A groundbreaking study of abortion in Chile published in 2012 is the first in-depth analysis of a large time series, year by year, of maternal deaths and their determinants and was led by Dr. Elard Koch[3]. The researchers found that outlawing abortion is not associated with maternal mortality and moreover it not only saved children but advanced women's health. That's right. Restrictive abortion laws were good for women’s health. At a time when access to legal abortion is often deemed as absolutely necessary for women’s health, this shatters that assumption.

    Koch and his colleagues discovered that similar to restrictions on alcohol or tobacco, restrictive abortion laws acted to dissuade. Further, they concluded that even with these restrictions, Chile has one of the lowest abortion-related maternal mortality rates in the world.

    As Koch explained in an interview:

    Source: A ground-breaking abortion study from Chile


    These data suggest that over time, restrictive laws may have a restraining effect on the practice of abortion and promote its decrease. In fact, Chile exhibits today one of the lowest abortion-related maternal deaths in the world, with a 92.3% decrease since 1989 and a 99.1% accumulated decrease over 50 years.

    Second, from the perspective of human life, especially if a developing country is looking to simultaneously protect the life of the mother and the unborn child, a plausible hypothesis after the Chilean study is that abortion restriction may be effective when is combined with adequately-implemented public policies to increase educational levels of women and to improve access to maternal health facilities. A restrictive law may discourage practice, which is suggested by the decrease of hospitalizations due to clandestine abortions estimated in Chile.



    Source

    © Copyright Original Source




    So while pro-abortion proponents repeatedly insist that abortion regulations or bans would result in a back-alley abortion surge and giving rise to an increase in deaths and serious injuries of women, the facts simply put indicate that this is not the case.

    Finally, one should bear in mind that if Roe were to be overturned it is highly doubtful that this would suddenly lead to abortions being outlawed nationwide. It would almost certainly throw it back to the states to decide on a state-by-state basis. It is inconceivable that states like California or New York would choose to make them illegal. The same could be said about other "blue" states (including those that voted for Trump in 2016) and likely for a number of "red" ones as well.

    And even in states that do opt to make them illegal, it would likely be like how it was in Ireland before they legalized abortion two months ago, where those wanting one simply took a day trip over to Great Britain in order to get one. The same with Poland which still has tight restrictions on abortion. As the Guardian noted matter-of-factly, "Polish women seeking abortions typically go to Germany or other neighbouring countries or order abortion pills online."








    1. Illinois Abortion Clinics Inspected an Average of Once Every 9 Years with 40% of licensed centers going between 14 and 17 years without inspections. Moreover, the state health department doesn't regulate Planned Parenthood but rather under Illinois law, they are regulated by the Illinois Department of Professional and Financial Regulation

    2. And, according to the Grand Jury report investigating him

    ..this business was a filthy fraud in which he overdosed his patients with dangerous drugs, spread venereal disease among them with infected instruments, perforated their wombs and bowels – and, on at least two occasions, caused their deaths. Over the years, many people came to know that something was going on here.

    But no one put a stop to it.


    In cases where the baby was born alive after Gosnell tried to abort it he stuck scissors into the back of their necks to cut their spinal cords (which he called "ensuring fetal demise)," and at least once making a joke of it.

    In the end Gosnell was convicted of first degree murder in the deaths of 3 of infants and involuntary manslaughter in the death of Karnamaya Mongar, a patient. He was also convicted of 21 felony counts of illegal late-term abortion, and 211 counts of violating the 24-hour informed consent law.

    3. An epidemiologist with the Department of Family Medicine, Faculty of Medicine at the University of Chile in Santiago as well as the Institute of Molecular Epidemiology (MELISA) and Center of Embryonic Medicine and Maternal Health, Faculty of Medicine, Universidad Católica de la Santísima Concepción, Concepción, Chile

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  6. #755
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post

    You can't even get your facts straight. By "the time of the ruling", Criswell had already been out of office for 3 years.
    The issue is what Criswell said not his term of office as a two-term elected president of the Southern Baptist Convention. And regardless he remained a senior Baptist pastor throughout.

    Criswell was merely reflecting the attitude common at the time and in fact throughout most of Judeo/Christian history, namely that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person.

    Further, Criswell preached that you were lost and going to Hell without receiving Christ as Savior. You embrace that, too, yes?
    This is just standard Baptist theology, which he is entitled to preach. Just as what Criswell had to say about abortion vis-a-vis personhood was the standard Baptist position of the day. The virulent anti-abortion stance and hysterical language about “slaughtering innocent babies” has only been around for the last 50 years.
    Last edited by Tassman; 10-22-2019 at 11:00 PM.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  7. #756
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    When you say "not usually referred to", you're excluding a very high number of actual biologists.
    I’m talking about the use of language, not biologists. One does not usually refer to a zygote or even a fetus as one’s "offspring".

    HUMAN LIFE is overwhelmingly recognized by BIOLOGISTS as beginning at conception - disciples of the culture of death ignore science and come up with convoluted excuses to continue the slaughter.
    Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument. What’s at issue is when the embryo/fetus is entitled to the full protection on the law as an individual person. Roe v Wade considered this to be when the fetus becomes a viable individual, i.e. within the first trimester. 71% of Americans agree with this ruling and oppose overturning the landmark Supreme Court ruling that recognizes abortion as a woman's constitutional right within these parameters.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    The pro-abortion crowd only cares about keeping abortion legal and if anything wants to increase abortions:
    Of course. Nothing like a good abortion to brighten up one's day.
    Last edited by Tassman; 10-22-2019 at 11:27 PM.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  8. #757
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    I’m talking about the use of language, not biologists.
    EGGzackly - ignore the science and hide behind 'creative terminology'.
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  9. #758
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    The issue is what Criswell said not his term of office as a two-term elected president of the Southern Baptist Convention. And regardless he remained a senior Baptist pastor throughout.
    You can't even keep your facts straight - you had clearly stated that he was President of the SBC at the time of the RvW decision. Wrong. You repeatedly demonstrate your complete and total ignorance of all things Southern Baptist.
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  10. #759
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post


    Of course. Nothing like a good abortion to brighten up one's day.
    Consider how many want to celebrate them...

    Look at post #751 for examples of such celebrations along with being happy when the number of abortions increase and being upset when the number decreases.

    Then there was the jubilant celebration in New York when they made it legal to abort babies for any reason right up to the moment of birth.




    And Gov. Cuomo even ordered bridges and government buildings be decorated with pink lights to celebrate allowing unborn babies to be killed for any reason whatsoever right up to the moment of birth.

    00000000000000ab000-00aaad0.jpg
    Please note how Cuomo himself characterizes it



    Once again the left puts the lie to their claim that they don't like abortion and that they want to make it as rare as possible. They rejoice in their iniquity.


    ETA: Another one to add to the mix.

    Michelle Wolf, the host of Netflix's "The Break with Michelle Wolf" (where she recently asked her audience the question "Are You Sort Of Hoping We Don't Get Peace With North Korea So You Wouldn't Have To Give Trump Credit?" and 71% said "yes") devoted a portion of her 4th of July episode celebrating abortions (calling it a "Salute to Abortion") shouting "God bless abortions and God bless America." She talked at length about how women have the unique ability to create life and then cheered on the idea that they should terminate those lives.



    When I brought some of this up before Adrift noted "Lena Dunham's podcast last year [2016] when she claimed that she wished she could have an abortion as a stand of solidarity for women's rights."
    Last edited by rogue06; 10-23-2019 at 05:06 AM.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  11. #760
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    I’m talking about the use of language, not biologists. One does not usually refer to a zygote or even a fetus as one’s "offspring".
    But they do refer to them as their baby.

    Ask any pregnant woman what's in there while pointing to their "baby bump" and I'll bet nearly all of them will say their baby and not fetus or clump of cells.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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