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Thread: Why I Voted For Trump...

  1. #761
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Got a cite for that? That's simply a liberal talking point, Jim

    False Claim #1: Legalizing abortion makes it rarer and safe. “In limiting access to abortion, lawmakers may unwittingly force women towards these unsafe options. By contrast, where legal and more easily accessible abortion rates actually go down.”

    The argument that legalizing abortion makes it safer, and also makes abortion rates go down, is gravely flawed. First and foremost, even if it were true, the argument contradicts a basic universal moral principle that the ends never justify the means. The authors are talking about legalizing the taking of innocent lives in order to… make the taking of innocent lives safer and less frequent. It just doesn’t add up. Laws exist to protect the most fundamental of rights, the first of which is the right to life.

    The other major problem is that the evidence to support the claim that abortions are more dangerous and more frequent when they are illegal is questionable at best. The authors link to an NBC story, which in turn references a Guttmacher study that actually states, “Abortion rates are similar in countries where abortion is highly restricted and where it is broadly legal. The abortion rate is 37 per 1,000 women in countries that prohibit abortion altogether or allow it only to save a woman’s life, and 34 per 1,000 in countries that allow abortion without restriction as to reason—a difference that is not significant.” In other words, even according to the Guttmacher Institute, the evidence does not support the authors’ claim that the rates go down with legalization. According to their own data, there is no statistical difference. The “rare” part of “safe, legal, and rare” is, and always has been, a complete myth.

    source
    No, actually, if you look at the data, it is not only a talking point, as if there is something wrong with talking points per se, but the talking point, happens to be true.

    http://www.guttmacher.org/sites/defa...s/gr040101.pdf

    As you can see, abortion is completely illegal in Latin America and yet abortion rates are estimated to be twice that of the U.S. and the mortality rate ranges from 6 to 20 times greater than that in the U.S.

  2. #762
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraceth View Post
    Safer? Probably. Rarer? Hardly.
    Safer, and rarer in the U.S according to comparisons with countries where abortion is illegal. Abortions seem to correlate with unplanned pregnancies, not with legality.

  3. #763
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    But they do refer to them as their baby.

    Ask any pregnant woman what's in there while pointing to their "baby bump" and I'll bet nearly all of them will say their baby and not fetus or clump of cells.
    Just like any other effort to murder masses of people, the first and most important step is to dehumanize them.

    It is a HUMAN BEING inside the womb, and Tass has even agreed to that. In order to justify killing that human, the culture of death has to declare them "not a person".
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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    No, actually, if you look at the data, it is not only a talking point, as if there is something wrong with talking points per se, but the talking point, happens to be true.

    http://www.guttmacher.org/sites/defa...s/gr040101.pdf

    As you can see, abortion is completely illegal in Latin America and yet abortion rates are estimated to be twice that of the U.S. and the mortality rate ranges from 6 to 20 times greater than that in the U.S.
    Did you actually read that PDF, Jim?

    First of all, it's from 20 years ago, and is simply a pleading that abortion CAN be legal, safe and rare.

    It doesn't change the fact that Planned Parenthood has no plans whatsoever to make abortion more rare -- they CELEBRATE numbers of abortions, as Rogue pointed out.
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  5. #765
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument.
    That's quite an admission - so ending that pregnancy would be terminating a human life? I concur!

    What’s at issue is when the embryo/fetus is entitled to the full protection on the law as an individual person. Roe v Wade considered this to be when the fetus becomes a viable individual, i.e. within the first trimester.
    While I'm sure this is apparently another glaring error on your part, you are implying that any abortion after week 13 is killing a "viable individual".
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  6. #766
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    No, actually, if you look at the data, it is not only a talking point, as if there is something wrong with talking points per se, but the talking point, happens to be true.

    http://www.guttmacher.org/sites/defa...s/gr040101.pdf

    As you can see, abortion is completely illegal in Latin America and yet abortion rates are estimated to be twice that of the U.S. and the mortality rate ranges from 6 to 20 times greater than that in the U.S.
    Your obsolete information is directly contradicted by newer data. For instance as I pointed out in post #754:

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post

    So let's turn to Chile. Why Chile you ask? While most countries in recent years have lessened legal restrictions on abortion, in contrast Chile took the opposite approach. In that country prior to 1989 abortion was largely legal, but in 1989, Chile banned all "therapeutic" abortions, thus providing us with an actual example of what can be expected when abortion is made illegal.

    A groundbreaking study of abortion in Chile published in 2012 is the first in-depth analysis of a large time series, year by year, of maternal deaths and their determinants and was led by Dr. Elard Koch[3]. The researchers found that outlawing abortion is not associated with maternal mortality and moreover it not only saved children but advanced women's health. That's right. Restrictive abortion laws were good for women’s health. At a time when access to legal abortion is often deemed as absolutely necessary for women’s health, this shatters that assumption.

    Koch and his colleagues discovered that similar to restrictions on alcohol or tobacco, restrictive abortion laws acted to dissuade. Further, they concluded that even with these restrictions, Chile has one of the lowest abortion-related maternal mortality rates in the world.

    As Koch explained in an interview:

    Source: A ground-breaking abortion study from Chile


    These data suggest that over time, restrictive laws may have a restraining effect on the practice of abortion and promote its decrease. In fact, Chile exhibits today one of the lowest abortion-related maternal deaths in the world, with a 92.3% decrease since 1989 and a 99.1% accumulated decrease over 50 years.

    Second, from the perspective of human life, especially if a developing country is looking to simultaneously protect the life of the mother and the unborn child, a plausible hypothesis after the Chilean study is that abortion restriction may be effective when is combined with adequately-implemented public policies to increase educational levels of women and to improve access to maternal health facilities. A restrictive law may discourage practice, which is suggested by the decrease of hospitalizations due to clandestine abortions estimated in Chile.



    Source

    © Copyright Original Source




    So while pro-abortion proponents repeatedly insist that abortion regulations or bans would result in a back-alley abortion surge and giving rise to an increase in deaths and serious injuries of women, the facts simply put indicate that this is not the case.

    Finally, one should bear in mind that if Roe were to be overturned it is highly doubtful that this would suddenly lead to abortions being outlawed nationwide. It would almost certainly throw it back to the states to decide on a state-by-state basis. It is inconceivable that states like California or New York would choose to make them illegal. The same could be said about other "blue" states (including those that voted for Trump in 2016) and likely for a number of "red" ones as well.

    And even in states that do opt to make them illegal, it would likely be like how it was in Ireland before they legalized abortion two months ago, where those wanting one simply took a day trip over to Great Britain in order to get one. The same with Poland which still has tight restrictions on abortion. As the Guardian noted matter-of-factly, "Polish women seeking abortions typically go to Germany or other neighbouring countries or order abortion pills online."










    3. An epidemiologist with the Department of Family Medicine, Faculty of Medicine at the University of Chile in Santiago as well as the Institute of Molecular Epidemiology (MELISA) and Center of Embryonic Medicine and Maternal Health, Faculty of Medicine, Universidad Católica de la Santísima Concepción, Concepción, Chile

    As an aside do you understand that the reason that abortions might be more plentiful in South America because birth control is usually unavailable or prohibitively expensive?

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  7. #767
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Your obsolete information is directly contradicted by newer data. For instance as I pointed out in post #754:


    As an aside do you understand that the reason that abortions might be more plentiful in South America because birth control is usually unavailable or prohibitively expensive?
    Do you even read what you post? The above is basically about maternal mortality rates, not the rate of abortions, other than opining that "restrictive laws may have a restraining effect" on the practice of abortion.

  8. #768
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Did you actually read that PDF, Jim?
    Yes.
    First of all, it's from 20 years ago, and is simply a pleading that abortion CAN be legal, safe and rare.
    Doesn't matter, the situation doesn't change, the issue was the same 20 years ago as it is now.
    It doesn't change the fact that Planned Parenthood has no plans whatsoever to make abortion more rare -- they CELEBRATE numbers of abortions, as Rogue pointed out.
    Now that's just ridiculous. It's called Planned Parenthood for a reason, CP. It's not only about abortion, it's about preventing unwanted pregnancies as well as other womens and family health issues.

  9. #769
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    That's quite an admission - so ending that pregnancy would be terminating a human life? I concur!
    You are not engaging with the argument, as you well know. What’s at issue is when the embryo/fetus is entitled to the full protection on the law as an individual person. Roe v Wade considered this to be when the fetus becomes a viable individual and built its ruling around this concept. 71% of Americans currently agree with this ruling.

    While I'm sure this is apparently another glaring error on your part, you are implying that any abortion after week 13 is killing a "viable individual".
    I am “implying” the argument made in R v W whereby fetal viability was the guide. Hence, the court divided pregnancy into three trimesters, and declared that the choice to end a pregnancy in the first trimester was solely up to the woman. In the second trimester, the government could regulate abortion, although not ban it, in order to protect the mother’s health. In the third trimester, the state could prohibit abortion to protect a fetus that could survive on its own outside the womb, except when a woman’s health was in danger.

    This actually reflects the attitude common throughout most of Judeo/Christian history, namely that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became a complete individual person. This was the position of your denomination until 50 years ago...at the time of the Roe decision the overwhelming response was silence, even approval.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    You can't even keep your facts straight - you had clearly stated that he was President of the SBC at the time of the RvW decision. Wrong. You repeatedly demonstrate your complete and total ignorance of all things Southern Baptist.
    It was a quote, actually, as linked. But it was what the two-term elected president of the Southern Baptist Convention, pastor Criswell, actually said that was significant and which you are avoiding with your calculated nit-picking. I suggest you go back and read what he said as provided at least twice previously.
    Last edited by Tassman; 10-23-2019 at 11:45 PM.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  10. #770
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    It's called Planned Parenthood for a reason, CP.
    Of course, because "Abortions R Us" would have been too provocative.

    They are the nation's largest abortion provider.

    Glenn Grothman says Planned Parenthood is leading abortion provider

    Our rating

    Grothman told constituents that "Planned Parenthood is the biggest abortion provider in the country."

    The agency’s national network of clinics stands apart from other providers as the undisputed leader when it comes to providing abortion services.

    This is one of those truisms that is basically, well, True.

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