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Gun Control - moved from E-cig thread

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    No, Jim, it is not better. It is much worse. Because not only are you NOT solving the problem, you just punished millions of people for what a handful of criminals were doing and will still do.

    Just because you feel helpless is no reason to punish law-abiding citizens who have the right to own these guns. Either find a real solution, or don't do anything. Just doing "something" is worse than useless.
    You are being purposefully obtuse Sparko. Yes, there is a reason to put and enfoce common sense rules on gun ownership. It is not a 'punishment' to submit to a background check no matter where you buy your gun, nor is it punishment to require you store the guns safely when you are not using them, or that you get training on how to use them, or even that we allow our fitness to own such weapons to be monitored. It is our responsibility to our fellow citizens. It is our responsibility to protect others from the potential danger our gun ownership presents to them.



    I didn't say the threat of punishment. I said actually punishing people who are not sinning to stop those who are. Especially a very small portion of the population. If a handful of people are doing something wrong, you don't punish everyone. We don't take cars away from everyone to stop a few drunk drivers. We don't even ban liquor to stop them. Why? Because most people are responsible drinkers and drivers.
    We are not punishing drivers to require auto-insurance with uninsured motorist coverage. We are not punishing drivers by requiring them to license their vehicles or to pass certain requirements to be able to drive the vehicle. We are protecting the public from basic misuse of those vehicles.

    You don't just punish everyone for the problems of a few. And in the case of guns, it isn't even the guns that are the problem, it is the people using them as tools to accomplish their evil. They can always find other tools. And will. All you are accomplishing by spinning your wheels and "doing something, anything" is hurting all of the people who are NOT the problem.
    It isn't punishment to put controls on gun ownership.

    Jim
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
      People have been killing one another for thousands of years and were far more violent in the past than today, despite even easier ways to kill than in the past. If anything, non violence is likely against our core instincts.
      irrelevant


      Jim
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        You are being purposefully obtuse Sparko. Yes, there is a reason to put and enfoce common sense rules on gun ownership. It is not a 'punishment' to submit to a background check no matter where you buy your gun, nor is it punishment to require you store the guns safely when you are not using them, or that you get training on how to use them, or even that we allow our fitness to own such weapons to be monitored. It is our responsibility to our fellow citizens. It is our responsibility to protect others from the potential danger our gun ownership presents to them.





        We are not punishing drivers to require auto-insurance with uninsured motorist coverage. We are not punishing drivers by requiring them to license their vehicles or to pass certain requirements to be able to drive the vehicle. We are protecting the public from basic misuse of those vehicles.



        It isn't punishment to put controls on gun ownership.

        Jim
        Controls already exist, so stop claiming they don’t.
        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          irrelevant


          Jim
          It is relevant because humans are quite violent, by nature.
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            Controls already exist, so stop claiming they don’t.
            I'm not claiming they don't. I'm claiming they are insufficient.

            Jim
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              I'm not claiming they don't. I'm claiming they are insufficient.

              Jim
              so your answer to me was not in fact correctl. Your answer to my post was that we need background checks and such. Yet that isn't really what you want is it? Because we already have that. You want to ban AR15s or make them so hard to qualify to own that the average citizen can't get one. Which means my initial post was correct. You want to punish the law-abiding owners to try to stop a handful of criminals.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                I'm not claiming they don't. I'm claiming they are insufficient.

                Jim
                And this opinion is based on....
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                  And this opinion is based on....
                  ... The consistent rise in mass shootings in the last few decades


                  shootings in the us.png


                  Jim
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    ... The consistent rise in mass shootings in the last few decades


                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]39799[/ATTACH]


                    Jim
                    And yet, I have demonstrated that human error accounts for much of these failures. Ignoring that little detail, won’t make it go away.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      ... The consistent rise in mass shootings in the last few decades


                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]39799[/ATTACH]


                      Jim
                      We have a lot more gun control now then we did back then so why are the numbers rising, and why would more gun control lower it in the future?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        I'm not claiming they don't. I'm claiming they are insufficient.

                        Jim
                        We don't know if they are sufficient or not they have not been really tried. Lack of enforcement means it wasn't tried. ENFORCE WHAT IS IN PLACE then you can say it was tried until then stop saying it has been tried.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post
                          We don't know if they are sufficient or not they have not been really tried. Lack of enforcement means it wasn't tried. ENFORCE WHAT IS IN PLACE then you can say it was tried until then stop saying it has been tried.
                          What I've said, in a nutshell, is - enforce what we have AND close the loopholes (e.g. require background checks for private sales).

                          It is important to recognize that when a person proposes an idea that includes more than one element, or more than one choice, that in order to process that idea, or respond intelligently to it, one must take into account the entirety of what was said.


                          Jim
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            so your answer to me was not in fact correctl. Your answer to my post was that we need background checks and such. Yet that isn't really what you want is it? Because we already have that. You want to ban AR15s or make them so hard to qualify to own that the average citizen can't get one. Which means my initial post was correct. You want to punish the law-abiding owners to try to stop a handful of criminals.
                            I don't believe you are taking into account all of what I said, but since you don't reference the post you are referring to, I have no objective means of evaluating that. I can tell you that your characterization of gun control as 'punishment' is wrong. A gun is a dangerous weapon, and high capacity semi-automatics a seriously dangerous weapon, and so there is a responsibility to the public to do what can be done to keep such weapons out of the hands of those that would use them to kill innocent people. Gun control laws are part of that process. Having them, complying with them, is just the civic duty of the gun owner.

                            Jim
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              What I've said, in a nutshell, is - enforce what we have AND close the loopholes (e.g. require background checks for private sales).
                              It’s still illegal to sell to known felons and how do you plan on enforcing this law Jim?

                              It is important to recognize that when a person proposes an idea that includes more than one element, or more than one choice, that in order to process that idea, or respond intelligently to it, one must take into account the entirety of what was said.
                              I understand that you want to pass unenforceable laws that run foul of the constitution.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                                It’s still illegal to sell to known felons and how do you plan on enforcing this law Jim?



                                I understand that you want to pass unenforceable laws that run foul of the constitution.
                                We have no problem enforcing the licensing and taxing of automobiles. They are in public view of course, which does make it easier. The hardest to enforce would be private sales by individuals. But I don't see it being that hard. If guns are licensed, then there is a record of ownership. If that gun ends up in the hands of another person committing a crime, you'd better have a document showing you had a background check done, or you'd better have reported it stolen. And when you report a gun stolen, you'd better be able to show you took reasonable precautions against it being stolen.

                                We don't have to take away guns. We just have to have and enforce reasonable laws governing their ownership. When they are used in a crime, any person that bent the rules, cut corners, refused to comply with those laws, needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law in a way that allows them to be held accountable for the deaths that occurred.

                                I just can't imagine anyone responsible enough to own a gun that would risk his life and career and family by trying to bend such laws. Just the act of eschewing them would indicate the person probably should not be allowed to own guns in the first place. Our rights can be forfeited if we commit a crime. Just make irresponsible gun ownership a crime and there should be no 2nd amendment conflict.

                                Jim
                                Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-21-2019, 09:28 AM.
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

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