Originally posted by seer
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Gun Control - moved from E-cig thread
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My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by seer View PostCan they do the same thing with a truck?
On the evening of 14 July 2016, a 19-tonne cargo truck was deliberately driven into crowds of people celebrating Bastille Day on the Promenade des Anglais in Nice, France, resulting in the deaths of 86 people and the injury of 458 others
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_truck_attack
The issue with guns in the US is that we refuse to adapt, and so a high powered, lightweight, low recoil, semi-automatic gun or rifle, in the us, is a relatively easy way to create this sort of mayhem - if you are a person willing to die as part of the operation.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI'm not as pessimistic as you are.
1) the evidence is that gun control works. Most (western?) countries
A) do not have the problems with mass shootings we do
B) do not have the sort of lax gun control laws we do.
So unless you are willing to say those countries are just better at raising decent people, there is a high probability lack of control is a big part of the problem
That said - I AGREE with you that lax enforcement is also a problem and that we certainly need to correct that and other issues along the way. Would that alone be sufficient? I have my doubts.
The issue of the NRA interfering with research into gun violence is inexcusable. The fear of bias is generally unfounded as it was with Tobacco, and as it is with Global Warming or the Theory or Evolution. Scientists - as long as they are left to do their jobs - generally are a group of people committed to knowledge and to high standards of integrity. And those standards are enforced. Shoddy workmanship or tampering with the data usually results in the end of a career as a scientist.Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 09-18-2019, 08:24 AM."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostSo maybe something about our culture is just more prone to violence then. Interesting, though not entirely surpising.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostIndeed they can. And we will have to adapt to deal with that possibility - barricades to keep autos and trucks out of areas where there are a large number of pedestrians probably, and increased security at public events.
The issue with guns in the US is that we refuse to adapt, and so a high powered, lightweight, low recoil, semi-automatic gun or rifle, in the us, is a relatively easy way to create this sort of mayhem - if you are a person willing to die as part of the operation."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostBeing a manager and supervisor has a tendency to expose one to the reality of human nature.
So to clarify: I am not as pessimistic as you are ABOUT OUR CAPACITY TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IF WE TRY.
And how many of these countries had a large pro gun culture with hundreds of millions of guns, in private hands? You should know that just because X solution worked at A place, doesnÂ’t mean it will work at B and C.
No, they just have the chance you might get run over or stabbed in the streets, but as I pointed out, just because you think something worked there, doesnÂ’t mean it will work here too.
Which doesnÂ’t change the fact that many gun laws are poorly enforced. How does enacting more laws, solve the issue of poor enforcement?
Define ‘better’. Countries don’t exist in vacuums. There’s lots of factors that effect things. Japan is a country with a history of following laws and has really low criminal rates; however; this same culture also puts stress on success and failures are treated far worse. As a result, Japan also has higher suicide rates. Have you been to Europe or lived there? You think the US is bad about racism, try parts of Europe. There’s no such thing as a perfect society, they all have their gives and takes.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostGuns are weapons designed to kill. That is what they are meant to do. Commercial Airplanes are not weapons designed to kill. They are a means of transportation. That is what they are meant to do.
There is no meaningful analogy here.
Jim
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostFree speech is not a weapon designed to kill. It is a mechanism that ensures a despot can't hide truth from people, a mechanism that preserves the free expression of ideas.
Yet both can be used to harm others too. So if you want to ban guns because they can be misused by people then you should ban free speech too. It has damaged a lot more people than guns have. The pen is mightier than the sword (or gun)
both for good and for ill.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostIt is not ONLY about saving lives seer. It is about preventing random acts of murder on a massive scale.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostNo seer. For about the fourth time, you can't make the sort of generalizations you are making that are allowing you to make these absurd arguments. This isn't just about stopping people from dying. It's not even about stopping murder. Its about pushing back against mass murder with the easiest to use, easiest to acquire, and least regulated means available to the general public.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostHow can I stop what I haven't been doing? You want to post an example of me doing that?
However, the AR15 is still too powerful, too useful for killing lots of people quickly to be unlicensed in some form.
Jim
You keep saying this but it is not true. It is no more powerful than any other sem-auto rifle. In fact there are much more powerful hunting rifles out there. And as far as killing a lot of people quickly, any semi-auto rifle or pistol could do the same. There is nothing more powerful about an AR15.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostImplying I don't understand hunan nature. Really pix, is this necessary?
So to clarify: I am not as pessimistic as you are ABOUT OUR CAPACITY TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IF WE TRY.
Doesn't change the fact that to many and unregulated guns is a big part of the problem. All you are saying is there is no way out of this mess, and again, I am less pessimistic than you are.
According to seers post (as regards knives anyway) you are still safer there than here. Which tends to imply we, as a people, are just more violent period.
You have a point. It would depend no whether the laws that exist address the enhanced threat posed the class of weapon typically symbolized by the AR15. But it it can be shown that 90% of these shootings could have been stopped just by enforcing existing laws, then that would be a really good place to start. But if there are obvious, glaring holes in the existing laws as it relates to mass shootings, then we need to pass laws to plug those holes (and enforce them, of course)
I wasn't claiming they are perfect - we are talking about mass shootings. However, I don't think there is a correlation between any of the negatives you mention as relates to these countries with less violent cultures and being a country where gun violence is among the worst in the civilized world. So bringing it up seems more a distraction than any sort of actual counter argument.Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 09-18-2019, 09:14 AM."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe article was making fun of the NYT article blaming the airplanes for 911 and then humorously dealing with them like liberals want to do with guns, because like liberals do, they blame the guns for the deaths, not the people using them. They want to ban guns as the culprit. So since the NYT was blaming the planes for 911, we should ban planes.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostWe've discussed guns before so, I know you're not ignorant about the subject. So, I don't know where you get this idea. Because ALL center fire rifles are powerful weapons...ALL of them. Of them, the .223/5.56 round that is the standard caliber for AR 15's is one of the least powerful in center fire rifles...easily in the bottom 1/3rd. It is illegal to hunt deer with it in several states because of that fact. (Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, Iowa, Massachusetts, Virginia, Ohio, New Jersey, Washington, and West Virginia require larger bullets to be used to hunt game.)
If you want a powerful gun for killing, a Remington Model 700 in a .243 (6mm Remington) or .308 would be a better choice.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI get that, but I don't think there is a reasonable extension to be made. It IS absurd to apply a valid paradigm for dealing with gun violence to how to deal with the misuse of Commercial Airplanes. But that does not mean the paradigm itself is absurd when applied to guns. For the reason mentioned in the post you are replying to: Guns are (mostly) portable weapons designed to kill. Commercial Airplanes are not.
Jim
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