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Book Plunge: Moral Combat: Why The War on Violent Video Games is Wrong

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  • #31
    Originally posted by TheWall View Post
    Reasonable concern. Do you have any ideas on what you would do to fix the issue?
    I think we should probably start by not pushing people in directions where we know they're likely to get caught up in all this. 15 years ago, that would mean not recommending people read Dan Brown's novels even if we thought they were great literature (which they weren't).
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #32
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      I think we should probably start by not pushing people in directions where we know they're likely to get caught up in all this. 15 years ago, that would mean not recommending people read Dan Brown's novels even if we thought they were great literature (which they weren't).
      I am not quite sure if I am entirely satisfied with this solution.
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      • #33
        It could work in some cases. It might not work at all in others.
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        • #34
          Originally posted by TheWall View Post
          I am not quite sure if I am entirely satisfied with this solution.
          Neither am I, but I think awareness is a huge key in thwarting the fiery arrows that come our way. That's where I think evangelism and apologetics come in. Believers, at least, ought to be aware of the subtle sub-context of these sorts of projects so that we can rightly divide what's going on in the spiritual realm, and help those who are not so spiritually discerning. I don't think that means non-engagement, to the contrary, it might mean direct engagement. How that takes shape, I'm uncertain. I'd love to see self-aware media created by Christians that take into account the subtlety of these projects and expose them to the light, but in ways that are non-preachy and yet still entertaining. It's a fine line to balance. It's one of the reasons I think that the current Christian entertainment field has failed so badly. It's way too overt, and aimed primarily towards a particularly Christian Evangelical enclave. I don't think that works in the long run. It must appeal to a broad audience, while still imparting a greater message. I've seen a number of films that do that, but they're far and few in between (Black Snake Moan, Bad Lieutenant, Signs, Babette's Feast, etc.). I can't think of any games that do that on a successful level.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            Neither am I, but I think awareness is a huge key in thwarting the fiery arrows that come our way. That's where I think evangelism and apologetics come in. Believers, at least, ought to be aware of the subtle sub-context of these sorts of projects so that we can rightly divide what's going on in the spiritual realm, and help those who are not so spiritually discerning. I don't think that means non-engagement, to the contrary, it might mean direct engagement. How that takes shape, I'm uncertain. I'd love to see self-aware media created by Christians that take into account the subtlety of these projects and expose them to the light, but in ways that are non-preachy and yet still entertaining. It's a fine line to balance. It's one of the reasons I think that the current Christian entertainment field has failed so badly. It's way too overt, and aimed primarily towards a particularly Christian Evangelical enclave. I don't think that works in the long run. It must appeal to a broad audience, while still imparting a greater message. I've seen a number of films that do that, but they're far and few in between (Black Snake Moan, Bad Lieutenant, Signs, Babette's Feast, etc.). I can't think of any games that do that on a successful level.
            I have to agree with you that most Christian films are really bad. Story production all of it in most cases is really bad. I have to wonder why a lot of the time. I figure a lot of it is that most of these films tell you what to think instead of trying to really teach. They tell stories that dont make sense. They are afraid of adventure or having protagonist that have to struggle and develop.

            As a fan of Narnia and Lord of the rings most christian films bore me. Boredom is one of the last things a film should do.
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            • #36
              Originally posted by TheWall View Post
              I have to agree with you that most Christian films are really bad. Story production all of it in most cases is really bad. I have to wonder why a lot of the time. I figure a lot of it is that most of these films tell you what to think instead of trying to really teach. They tell stories that dont make sense. They are afraid of adventure or having protagonist that have to struggle and develop.

              As a fan of Narnia and Lord of the rings most christian films bore me. Boredom is one of the last things a film should do.
              Yeah, I think it mostly comes down to preaching to the choir. Instead of making films by Christians for Christians, it'd be much better if some savvy Christian writers/directors slipped through the cracks into mainstream Hollywood itself, or if going the indie route, avoiding Christian studios and marketing that bills the work as "Christian," but billing it instead as "day-in-the-life," "road-trip," "coming of age" whatever, instead. There's dozens of these types of indie films that get major praise from film critics every year. A talented writer might be able to overlay one of these of films with Christian themes and slip it past mainstream critics in the same way that so many secularists load the same types of movies with whatever agendas they're pushing.

              I'm also a bit skeptical of the whole "Christian" entertainment industry. I'm not sure how true it is, but I've read reports that a lot of those involved in the industry are either not Christian, or not particularly living their faith, but are selling out to Christian audiences because it's a sure buck. There's something temple table flipping about that.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Adrift View Post

                I'm also a bit skeptical of the whole "Christian" entertainment industry. I'm not sure how true it is, but I've read reports that a lot of those involved in the industry are either not Christian, or not particularly living their faith, but are selling out to Christian audiences because it's a sure buck. There's something temple table flipping about that.
                The only aspect of it that I know much of anything about is the music industry. There are two lines of thought about it from within; stay ghettoized, or try to break in with secular audiences. A few bands have done a decent job of the latter, but over time, they often, gradually drift away from Christianity and often terminate in apostasy. (Skillet is a rare example of a band that has successfully crossed over to secular audiences over an extended period of time without compromising their faith.) This raises hard questions should a band go this way. If a band is touring with expressly non-Christian bands, what message does this send? And are they luring Christian fans in to places they shouldn't be? (A few years ago, I was following a well known Christian metal band on Facebook. They posted a concert flyer with at least one F bomb on it, as they were touring in "mixed company". I commented that it wasn't a good look, to find myself buried beneath a barrage of criticism that I probably deserved.)

                Having said that, I don't necessarily have a problem with bands that deny the "Christian band label" or the act of doing so. mewithoutyou famously would not adopt the label because they thought themselves unworthy of the label. The haste of denying it is a bit concerning in many cases though.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  If a band is touring with expressly non-Christian bands, what message does this send?
                  Why should it have to send a message?

                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  And are they luring Christian fans in to places they shouldn't be? (A few years ago, I was following a well known Christian metal band on Facebook. They posted a concert flyer with at least one F bomb on it, as they were touring in "mixed company". I commented that it wasn't a good look, to find myself buried beneath a barrage of criticism that I probably deserved.)

                  Having said that, I don't necessarily have a problem with bands that deny the "Christian band label" or the act of doing so.
                  I think you're thinking of this in a much different way than I am. It seems to me that you're thinking of bands that are either actively evangelizing (in some sense), or who wear their Christianity on their sleeve. I think a much more interesting alternative are those bands with Christians in them who are not attempting to distinguish themselves, but are merely making music for music's sake, and since Christ is the focus of their life, will tend to make music that focuses on him, or on the Christian walk, without thinking of anything beyond that. They're not interested in the music scene, or music labels, or calling themselves a Christian band, not to escape or deny that genre label, but because they're just not hooked into that world. I have in mind bands like the Gothic Americana band "16 Horsepower,"(now going under Wovenhand), or more alternative type bands like Danielson and Sufjan Stevens. Danielson probably wears his Christianity on his sleeve more than the other two, but he's out there making extremely unique music that doesn't easily pigeonhole him into any genre or with any particular audience.
                  Last edited by Adrift; 10-14-2019, 05:38 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    Why should it have to send a message?
                    An implicit message is sent, whether acknowledged or not.

                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post

                    I think you're thinking of this in a much different way than I am. It seems to me that you're thinking of bands that are either actively evangelizing (in some sense), or who wear their Christianity on their sleeve. I think a much more interesting alternative are those bands with Christians in them who are not attempting to distinguish themselves, but are merely making music for music's sake, and since Christ is the focus of their life, will tend to make music that focuses on him, or on the Christian walk, without thinking of anything beyond that. They're not interested in the music scene, or music labels, or calling themselves a Christian band, not to escape or deny that genre label, but because they're just not hooked into that world. I have in mind bands like the Gothic Americana band "16 Horsepower,"(now going under Wovenhand), or more alternative type bands like Danielson and Sufjan Stevens. Danielson probably wears his Christianity on his sleeve more than the other two, but he's out there making extremely unique music that doesn't easily pigeonhole him into any genre or with any particular audience.
                    The band I had in mind for my anecdote, Living Sacrifice, was one I listened to in their early years. They were pushed hard by the Christian industry of your former type, and wrote explicitly theological lyrics at that point and even engaged in evangelism within the lyric booklet. I sort of lost track of them over time, and it may well be that they simply evolved in what they wanted to be... in which, case, fair enough.

                    Most of the "examples" I had in mind were bands that were frequently promoted within youth groups, Christian bookstores, etc. that seemed desperate to push teens toward "Christian alternatives". In retrospect, there's a very obvious financial motive there, and most of the comparisons made were poor. Some of these bands may never have wanted to be promoted in that manner (Chevelle is the best example I think of off the top of my head) and it may thus be unfair to hold them to that standard.

                    Isn't Sufjan Stevens the singer who is known for promoting gay themes and refusing to discuss his religious beliefs? I'm not too familiar with him beyond that and his Illinois album that my little brother played to death in high school.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      An implicit message is sent, whether acknowledged or not.
                      Maybe. I'm not sure. I listen to lot of bands who don't really have a message, or if they do, it never quite reaches me. I just enjoy the music.

                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      The band I had in mind for my anecdote, Living Sacrifice, was one I listened to in their early years. They were pushed hard by the Christian industry of your former type, and wrote explicitly theological lyrics at that point and even engaged in evangelism within the lyric booklet. I sort of lost track of them over time, and it may well be that they simply evolved in what they wanted to be... in which, case, fair enough.

                      Most of the "examples" I had in mind were bands that were frequently promoted within youth groups, Christian bookstores, etc. that seemed desperate to push teens toward "Christian alternatives". In retrospect, there's a very obvious financial motive there, and most of the comparisons made were poor. Some of these bands may never have wanted to be promoted in that manner (Chevelle is the best example I think of off the top of my head) and it may thus be unfair to hold them to that standard.
                      Yeah, I don't really go for that "Christian rock" scene stuff. Not only is it usually terrible, and a pale imitation of the real thing, but, again, there's the temple table temptation, and it's really a whole lot of preaching to the choir. It just comes off as schlocky to me. I was somewhat associated with it in the late 90s. Did sound for a relatively popular Christian rock band, and then later was an editor of a Christian Industrial zine, but it was all kinda silly. I think as a teen without a Christian background I'd have a really hard time taking any band labeling themselves "Christian" seriously. If your songs happen to be Christ-centric, and people appreciate your music for what it is, not because it's Christian but because it's legitimately good, I think that's enough.

                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      Isn't Sufjan Stevens the singer who is known for promoting gay themes and refusing to discuss his religious beliefs? I'm not too familiar with him beyond that and his Illinois album that my little brother played to death in high school.
                      No idea. I'm not at all interested in his personal life, and don't know much of his work past Illinois, but I know that his album before that, Seven Swans is a fantastic, deeply personal, deeply spiritual album that makes me weep every time I listen to it.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        Maybe. I'm not sure. I listen to lot of bands who don't really have a message, or if they do, it never quite reaches me. I just enjoy the music.



                        Yeah, I don't really go for that "Christian rock" scene stuff. Not only is it usually terrible, and a pale imitation of the real thing, but, again, there's the temple table temptation, and it's really a whole lot of preaching to the choir. It just comes off as schlocky to me. I was somewhat associated with it in the late 90s. Did sound for a relatively popular Christian rock band, and then later was an editor of a Christian Industrial zine, but it was all kinda silly. I think as a teen without a Christian background I'd have a really hard time taking any band labeling themselves "Christian" seriously. If your songs happen to be Christ-centric, and people appreciate your music for what it is, not because it's Christian but because it's legitimately good, I think that's enough.
                        Interesting. I mostly limited my music purchases to Christian metal type stuff (haven't bought much at all in the last decade or two). Some of it wasn't very good, but there's plenty I've quite enjoyed musically. Since I finally got a smartphone and my car has a Pandora option, I've been listening to a set of music seeded by Def Leppard, one of my early favorite bands from before I got into Christian stuff. The Christian bands I purchased with staying power (releasing several albums) generally compare favorably musically with the secular stuff I'm hearing for often the first time.

                        KG: Living Sacrifice's lyrics are still Christian (as of Ghost Thief, anyway), but aren't as preachy as they once were.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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