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Book Plunge: Moral Combat: Why The War on Violent Video Games is Wrong

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  • #16
    Originally posted by TheWall View Post
    Most games I know of that do that are so completely over the top it honestly comes of as unintentionally hilarious.

    Most games I know that have characters that have evil folks getting godlike pepper are games that honestly I could see most anybody enjoying.
    What does it mean to get godlike pepper?
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #17
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      What does it mean to get godlike pepper?
      Godlike power. Characters like Kefka, Kuja, Ultemecia, Sephiroth,Orgodemir, Jubileus, and several others are characters that gain incredible power and want to reshape the universe. All of these characters well except Kuja somewhat are definitely the bad guys of the story.
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      • #18
        Originally posted by TheWall View Post
        Most games I know of that do that are so completely over the top it honestly comes of as unintentionally hilarious.
        Hmm. So, I haven't played every title in the series, but let's take Assassin's Creed for example. That's a game that pits a protagonist group, the Assassin Brotherhood, against a secret cabal from the Templar Order. The premise slowly unfolds that both factions are fighting for an ancient alien technology that premodern societies either found to be holy or magic. The character controlled by the player is sent into a number of simulations using his/her genetic memory in order to reveal certain secrets about the whereabouts of these relics, and in so doing uncovers the "real" history behind the history we currently take for granted, or consider mythological. As the games develop we learn things like, Jesus is not divine, rather he's simply a fraud who at various times possessed some of this ancient technology that made him seem like he was divine. And this is true for other Biblical miracle workers as well. It's then suggested that parts of the Church have known this throughout the ages and have sought to cover it up. In the meantime, the Assassin Brotherhood, part of an Islamic sect are attempting to thwart the various machinations of The Templars.

        It's silly, and I don't think it's necessarily wrong to play these games, but I do think it plants an ear worm in certain people's minds. It's part of an overall agenda, in my opinion, to slowly hammer away at the Christian worldview.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          Hmm. So, I haven't played every title in the series, but let's take Assassin's Creed for example. That's a game that pits a protagonist group, the Assassin Brotherhood, against a secret cabal from the Templar Order. The premise slowly unfolds that both factions are fighting for an ancient alien technology that premodern societies either found to be holy or magic. The character controlled by the player is sent into a number of simulations using his/her genetic memory in order to reveal certain secrets about the whereabouts of these relics, and in so doing uncovers the "real" history behind the history we currently take for granted, or consider mythological. As the games develop we learn things like, Jesus is not divine, rather he's simply a fraud who at various times possessed some of this ancient technology that made him seem like he was divine. And this is true for other Biblical miracle workers as well. It's then suggested that parts of the Church have known this throughout the ages and have sought to cover it up. In the meantime, the Assassin Brotherhood, part of an Islamic sect are attempting to thwart the various machinations of The Templars.

          It's silly, and I don't think it's necessarily wrong to play these games, but I do think it plants an ear worm in certain people's minds. It's part of an overall agenda, in my opinion, to slowly hammer away at the Christian worldview.
          I see it more as people taking shots at something that most everyone knows. Most everyone knows something about the gospel even if that something is false. Turning stories on their head has been a thing for a while and amazing stories have come from that.

          In the case of things like assassins creed I see it as not only being inferior to other games mechanics wise with Metal Gear trumping it as a stealth game.

          I like stories about aliens or alternate realities, but you still need an explanation of how those things came into being.

          If anything it is my interest in history that makes assassins creed as a series so unintentionally hilarious at how it treats speculative historical fiction.
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          • #20
            Originally posted by TheWall View Post
            I see it more as people taking shots at something that most everyone knows. Most everyone knows something about the gospel even if that something is false. Turning stories on their head has been a thing for a while and amazing stories have come from that.

            In the case of things like assassins creed I see it as not only being inferior to other games mechanics wise with Metal Gear trumping it as a stealth game.

            I like stories about aliens or alternate realities, but you still need an explanation of how those things came into being.

            If anything it is my interest in history that makes assassins creed as a series so unintentionally hilarious at how it treats speculative historical fiction.
            With all due respect, your post doesn't really address Adrift's concern at all. The fact that most people "know" about the gospel doesn't justify promulgating known conspiracy theories that offer alternatives to the gospels, or render it harmless. Since you are familiar with Christian apologetics, you might know that what you see is nonsense, but your average Joe who has never even heard the word "apologetics" might take it seriously.
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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            • #21
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              With all due respect, your post doesn't really address Adrift's concern at all. The fact that most people "know" about the gospel doesn't justify promulgating known conspiracy theories that offer alternatives to the gospels, or render it harmless. Since you are familiar with Christian apologetics, you might know that what you see is nonsense, but your average Joe who has never even heard the word "apologetics" might take it seriously.
              A cursory look into history shows that assassins creed is ludicrous. You can debunk it the same way you debunk The Divinci Code. I also never said that I found such unhistorical stories to be valid as truth let alone gospel truth

              I figure that if you want to help those that may be influenced by such stories sit them down and show them the truth. Lee Strobel has a book on The Divinci Code.

              I must admit I have a pretty strong grasp on what is real and what is not. Can I be misinformed well of course. It is because people lie and spread misinformation that I believe we are called to learn the truth
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              • #22
                I do have to say KG I admire that you are concerned. I am too. I think these kind of things could be used as a learning opportunity in the sense of Here is truth and here is non truth.

                The truth is mocking christianity in media is somewhat common. Look at Preacher for instance. I find such stories poorly written and driven primarily by shock value and feelings of catharsis. I dont like these stories, but I can still learn from them even if it is only what is not true.

                Still for those who have little faith or are young in their faith I would advise building them up so that when they do confront something like that they can handle it.

                I suppose part of my attitude about this comes from how I came to faith and grew in faith. Everyone is different after all and I dont want to cause people to stumble.
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                • #23
                  With what Adrift said, the book wasn't written by Christians afaik and the only point to address is violence. It is not addressing other points. For what he said, Final Fantasy came to my mind first. I love the series, but every time the church shows up, it's evil. Perhaps we could learn something about how the Japanese view us and what we can do about that. Yes. I have a problem with that kind of mindset, but the way to do better I think is to have Christians in the video game industry and not just making cheesy Jesus games that only fellow Christians will play. Make fun games that non-Christians will want to play, like any other media.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                    With what Adrift said, the book wasn't written by Christians afaik and the only point to address is violence. It is not addressing other points. For what he said, Final Fantasy came to my mind first. I love the series, but every time the church shows up, it's evil. Perhaps we could learn something about how the Japanese view us and what we can do about that. Yes. I have a problem with that kind of mindset, but the way to do better I think is to have Christians in the video game industry and not just making cheesy Jesus games that only fellow Christians will play. Make fun games that non-Christians will want to play, like any other media.
                    The church is not always evil in final fantasy. In Dragon Quest it is a major force for good and even in eight they make a point that Marcellos pharasiacal cruelty is a mockery of what a priest should be.

                    I agree though just slapping jesus on stuff is lazy. Narnia is brilliant. Lord of the rings is brilliant. I want more things like that.

                    I want to see well made things. I want to see goodness in different art forms.
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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by TheWall View Post
                      A cursory look into history shows that assassins creed is ludicrous. You can debunk it the same way you debunk The Divinci Code. I also never said that I found such unhistorical stories to be valid as truth let alone gospel truth

                      I figure that if you want to help those that may be influenced by such stories sit them down and show them the truth. Lee Strobel has a book on The Divinci Code.

                      I must admit I have a pretty strong grasp on what is real and what is not. Can I be misinformed well of course. It is because people lie and spread misinformation that I believe we are called to learn the truth
                      There were more than a few people who took the Da Vinci code seriously.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        There were more than a few people who took the Da Vinci code seriously.
                        I used to believe things that were similiar. Learning the truth changed me.
                        I dont know any other solution than letting the truth free.
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          With all due respect, your post doesn't really address Adrift's concern at all. The fact that most people "know" about the gospel doesn't justify promulgating known conspiracy theories that offer alternatives to the gospels, or render it harmless. Since you are familiar with Christian apologetics, you might know that what you see is nonsense, but your average Joe who has never even heard the word "apologetics" might take it seriously.
                          Right. It seems to me that most people at best are not interested in history, or at worse find it boring, so I imagine most people are not going to spend a whole lot of time exploring the game's less overtly fantastic claims. And ultimately the subtext behind a game like Assassin's Creed is that the church (here often represented by the Catholic Church, but which is used as a stand-in for the church at large) cannot be trusted. It's made up of scheming liars and fools who have for ages attempted to mislead the ignorant. This has the ring of truth for a lot of people today. It's not just this game, but Assassin's Creed is part of a larger tapestry of post-modern anti-Christian sentiment that aims to slowly hammer it away.

                          And again, it's not about the details. Most people will recognize that Assassin's Creed is fiction/fantasy, but it's part of this overall theme of "don't trust religion," and the divine is something that science can explain away, or that science trumps the supernatural.

                          But, getting into the details of that series, people have seriously suggested that alien technology (or aliens themselves) can explain away the supernatural. Look no further than the Ancient Astronaut theory. And the fact that an Islamic sect is the hero of the game, and that the game takes a hands-off approach to Muhammad, while feeling free to tinker with Jesus and Moses, well...that's a bit telling as well. But these things aren't my main concern. My main concern is this use of popular fiction to subtly and perhaps subconsciously get people to view Christianity with suspicion. And games like Assassin's Creed, and Tomb Raider, and shows like Preacher, The Boys and The Handmaid's Tale, and books like The Da Vinci Code and A Series of Unfortunate Events, and all sorts of other popular media are part of that tapestry driving a message home. Religion (specifically Christianity) can't be trusted/is untrue, and God is evil or an old-fashioned myth.
                          Last edited by Adrift; 09-26-2019, 08:07 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                            With what Adrift said, the book wasn't written by Christians afaik and the only point to address is violence. It is not addressing other points. For what he said, Final Fantasy came to my mind first. I love the series, but every time the church shows up, it's evil. Perhaps we could learn something about how the Japanese view us and what we can do about that. Yes. I have a problem with that kind of mindset, but the way to do better I think is to have Christians in the video game industry and not just making cheesy Jesus games that only fellow Christians will play. Make fun games that non-Christians will want to play, like any other media.
                            I see. And yes, I agree it would be nice to see Christian sentiment in popular media without it coming off hokey.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              Right. It seems to me that most people at best are not interested in history, or at worse find it boring, so I imagine most people are not going to spend a whole lot of time exploring the game's less overtly fantastic claims. And ultimately the subtext behind a game like Assassin's Creed is that the church (here often represented by the Catholic Church, but which is used as a stand-in for the church at large) cannot be trusted. It's made up of scheming liars and fools who have for ages attempted to mislead the ignorant. This has the ring of truth for a lot of people today. It's not just this game, but Assassin's Creed is part of a larger tapestry of post-modern anti-Christian sentiment that aims to slowly hammer it away.

                              And again, it's not about the details. Most people will recognize that Assassin's Creed is fiction/fantasy, but it's part of this overall theme of "don't trust religion," and the divine is something that science can explain away, or that science trumps the supernatural.

                              But, getting into the details of that series, people have seriously suggested that alien technology (or aliens themselves) can explain away the supernatural. Look no further than the Ancient Astronaut theory. And the fact that an Islamic sect is the hero of the game, and that the game takes a hands-off approach to Muhammad, while feeling free to tinker with Jesus and Moses, well...that's a bit telling as well. But these things aren't my main concern. My main concern is this use of popular fiction to subtly and perhaps subconsciously get people to view Christianity with suspicion. And games like Assassin's Creed, and Tomb Raider, and shows like Preacher, The Boys and The Handmaid's Tale, and books like The Da Vinci Code and A Series of Unfortunate Events, and all sorts of other popular media are part of that tapestry driving a message home. Religion (specifically Christianity) can't be trusted/is untrue, and God is evil or an old-fashioned myth.
                              Reasonable concern. Do you have any ideas on what you would do to fix the issue?
                              sigpic

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by TheWall View Post
                                Reasonable concern. Do you have any ideas on what you would do to fix the issue?
                                I think the issue is increasingly pandemic, and so don't think there's much that can be done to fix the issue outright. My opinion is that it's part of the nature of our world growing increasingly dark, and rejecting Christ, and with him, his Bride. I think apologetics, good evangelism, and getting powerful and influential Christians into media industries can help slow the nature of that growth, but I think ultimately it'll be part and parcel of moving Christianity underground (not literally, but in a social sense). And I'm not completely pessimistic about that. I can think of a lot of good coming from it. So, for instance, I believe that moving Christianity underground can give it the radical appeal and attraction that it's mostly lost since probably the 4th and 5th centuries. As society puts more pressure on Christianity, we begin to separate the wheat from the chaff, those who are actually followers of Christ, and know what that means, and those who've merely labeled themselves Christian because it was expected by their society, and because they were occasionally dragged into a church a couple times a year. And of course, I look forward to Christ's return, and I think that the world growing darker is, in an ironic twist, a hopeful sign of that.

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