I gave a translation that showed no YHWY. What you showed is a picture of a tablet with an arrow I cannot read. Need more.
Announcement
Collapse
Archeology 201 Guidelines
If Indiana Jones happened to be a member of Tweb, this is where he'd hang out.
Welcome to the Archeology forum. Were you out doing some gardening and dug up a relic from the distant past? would you like to know more about Ancient Egypt? Did you think Memphis was actually a city in Tennessee?
Well, for the answers to those and other burning questions you've found the right digs.
Our forum rules apply here too, if you haven't read them now is the time.
Forum Rules: Here
Welcome to the Archeology forum. Were you out doing some gardening and dug up a relic from the distant past? would you like to know more about Ancient Egypt? Did you think Memphis was actually a city in Tennessee?
Well, for the answers to those and other burning questions you've found the right digs.
Our forum rules apply here too, if you haven't read them now is the time.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
Sodom and Gomorrah Discovered
Collapse
X
-
Last edited by tabibito; 07-21-2014, 03:45 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
-
Originally posted by tabibito View PostYou gave a translation that stands in contradiction of the opinion of a significant majority of experts in the field. And moreover, one for which I cannot trace any support.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_Stele#Text
I am Mesha, son of Chemosh-gad, king of Moab, the Dibonite. My father reigned over Moab thirty years, and I have reigned after my father. And I have built this sanctuary for Chemosh in Karchah, a sanctuary of salvation, for he saved me from all aggressors, and made me look upon all mine enemies with contempt. Omri was king of Israel, and oppressed Moab during many days, and Chemosh was angry with his aggressions. His son succeeded him, and he also said, I will oppress Moab. In my days he said, Let us go, and I will see my desire upon him and his house, and Israel said, I shall destroy it for ever. Now Omri took the land of Madeba, and occupied it in his day, and in the days of his son, forty years. And Chemosh had mercy on it in my time. And I built Baal-meon and made therein the ditch, and I built Kiriathaim. And the men of Gad dwelled in the country of Ataroth from ancient times, and the king of Israel fortified Ataroth. I assaulted the wall and captured it, and killed all the warriors of the city for the well-pleasing of Chemosh and Moab, and I removed from it all the spoil, and offered it before Chemosh in Kirjath; and I placed therein the men of Siran, and the men of Mochrath. And Chemosh said to me, Go take Nebo against Israel, and I went in the night and I fought against it from the break of day till noon, and I took it: and I killed in all seven thousand men, but I did not kill the women and maidens, for I devoted them to Ashtar-Chemosh; and I took from it the vessels of Jehovah, and offered them before Chemosh. And the king of Israel fortified Jahaz, and occupied it, when he made war against me, and Chemosh drove him out before me, and I took from Moab two hundred men in all, and placed them in Jahaz, and took it to annex it to Dibon. I built Karchah the wall of the forest, and the wall of the Hill. I have built its gates and I have built its towers. I have built the palace of the king, and I made the prisons for the criminals within the wall. And there were no wells in the interior of the wall in Karchah. And I said to all the people, ‘Make you every man a well in his house.’ And I dug the ditch for Karchah with the chosen men of Israel. I built Aroer, and I made the road across the Arnon. I took Beth-Bamoth for it was destroyed. I built Bezer for it was cut down by the armed men of Daybon, for all Daybon was now loyal; and I reigned from Bikran, which I added to my land. And I built Beth-Gamul, and Beth-Diblathaim, and Beth Baal-Meon, and I placed there the poor people of the land. And as to Horonaim, the men of Edom dwelt therein, on the descent from old. And Chemosh said to me, Go down, make war against Horonaim, and take it. And I assaulted it, And I took it, for Chemosh restored it in my days. Wherefore I made.... ...year...and I....
© Copyright Original SourceGlendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
As Astour points out, the reference to Yahweh at Soleb is 500 years earlier than the well-known Moabite Stone’s reference to Yahweh, and thus it is by far the earliest non-biblical occurrence of the name Yahweh. Even if Yahweh in these Egyptian texts is a place, it seems nearly certain that such an area, city, or town was named after the Hebrew God of Yahweh of the Old Testament. We thus still would have the earliest references to the God of Yahweh found outside of the Old Testament.
Yours is an interesting find, Quantum Weirdness.Last edited by tabibito; 07-21-2014, 03:51 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View PostSo - Reference to Hebrews and their God dating close to 1300BC, and they were trotting around in Egypt. With argument that the name of YHVH referred to a locality for which no documentation or archaeological evidence can be found. Interesting. Even more interesting, is the reference to that same YHVH in another inscription, for which no reading as a place name is possible.
Yours is an interesting find, Quantum Weirdness.-The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
Sir James Jeans
-This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
Sir Isaac Newton
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View PostSo - Reference to Hebrews and their God dating close to 1300BC, and they were trotting around in Egypt. With argument that the name of YHVH referred to a locality for which no documentation or archaeological evidence can be found. Interesting. Even more interesting, is the reference to that same YHVH in another inscription, for which no reading as a place name is possible.
Yours is an interesting find, Quantum Weirdness.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
Nope. The "El" of the Hebrews was known to them as "El Shaddai". Just a different title for the same god.
Exodus 6:3 “I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as El Shaddai, but by My name YHVH I was not known to them. - with a note that "not known to them" seems to be an error. So far, I haven't been able to reconcile this statement with the balance of evidence available in Genesis.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI gave a translation that showed no YHWY. What you showed is a picture of a tablet with an arrow I cannot read. Need more.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
Comment
-
Originally posted by robrecht View PostI can read it. It says YHWH (not YHWY).Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostSorry for the mistake. Yes, going back to at least ~1500 BCE one of the Hebrew gods was YHWH1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View PostI'm inclined believe that this "one of the Hebrew gods" had something to do with the actions of Amenophis around 1497 BC - and while there is (based on pure speculation) an argument that Amenophis all by himself and with nothing to prompt his action, suddenly tried to start up a monotheistic, state sponsored religion in defiance of all prior custom, I'm kind of inclined to believe that something actually prompted his action.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
Aside from the "Abrahamic" family of religions (including Rastafari and Bahai), I can find references to only two religions that are monotheistic ... Sikhism, and Zoroastrianism. There doesn't seem to be any statistical basis for asserting that there is a progression from polytheism (of any sort) to monotheism.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View PostAside from the "Abrahamic" family of religions (including Rastafari and Bahai), I can find references to only two religions that are monotheistic ... Sikhism, and Zoroastrianism. There doesn't seem to be any statistical basis for asserting that there is a progression from polytheism (of any sort) to monotheism.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
Comment
-
Originally posted by robrecht View PostI wonder to what extent one might consider Guru Nanak and Sikhism to be both influenced by and a reaction against Islam. A Sikh colleague of mine, whose father is a Sikh author, says informally that Sikhism combines the best of Hinduism and Islam. I've never studied Sikhism and my friend is not theologically inclined so this may be a very informal characterization.
Zoroastrianism developed in the Middle East, and came into being somewhen between 700 and 300 BC. According to Parsi records, Zoroaster was born around 660 BC. Again, there is a clear presence of an Abrahamic religion long before Zoroastrianism was thought of. So, while Zoroastrianism and Sikhism are not direct line Abrahamic religions, they amalgamate other religions with Abrahamic traditions.
The outcome - even less statistical support for the concept that monotheistic religions develop from polytheistic religions.
I haven't checked all the religions on the list of 47 available, but with the exception of tenrikyou (which developed in the 19th century anyway) all that I have checked stem either from Abrahamic or Buddhist systems, and nothing other than those already noted above pre-dates the 10th century AD.Last edited by tabibito; 07-24-2014, 02:57 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View PostYep - from what I have been able to find, the development of Sikhism seems to have begun with Buddhism, with a strong influence through contact with Islam.
Zoroastrianism developed in the Middle East, and came into being somewhen between 700 and 300 BC. According to Parsi records, Zoroaster was born around 660 BC. Again, there is a clear presence of an Abrahamic religion long before Zoroastrianism was thought of. So, while Zoroastrianism and Sikhism are not direct line Abrahamic religions, they amalgamate other religions with Abrahamic traditions.
The outcome - even less statistical support for the concept that monotheistic religions develop from polytheistic religions.
I haven't checked all the religions on the list of 47 available, but with the exception of tenrikyou (which developed in the 19th century anyway) all that I have checked stem either from Abrahamic or Buddhist systems, and nothing other than those already noted above pre-dates the 10th century AD.
As far as Abrahamic origins you can include Ugarit, Canaanite, and other pre-Babylonian writings predate anything in Hebrew and the OT has distinct roots in these writings. These writings show distinct polytheistic origins for Hebrew scripture older then any known Hebrew text.Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-24-2014, 03:25 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
Transmission of texts in the Vedic period was by oral tradition alone, preserved with precision with the help of elaborate mnemonic techniques. A literary tradition set in only in post-Vedic times, after the rise of Buddhism in the Maurya period, perhaps earliest in the Kanva recension of the Yajurveda about the 1st century BCE; however oral tradition predominated until c. 1000 CE.
These writings show distinct polytheistic origins for Hebrew scripture older then any known Hebrew text.
The monotheism of the older Vedic god Brahma(n) may well be the source of A-braham.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 05:38 AM
|
0 responses
11 views
0 likes
|
Last Post 03-26-2024, 05:38 AM |
Comment